While I think this is most likely due to masking, distancing and staying home when sick, which were all far more effective against the flu than against SARS-CoV-2, I wonder how much this was affected by some of the deep cleans that cities were doing at the beginning of the pandemic where they basically sprayed entire cities with disinfectant trucks. Does anyone with more expertise have any thoughts about that?
Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
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Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#142Why did the flu also disappear in the states that had effectively no covid restrictions? This is a serious question and not an attempt at rhetoric. I really am curious. Was flu never a problem in Florida? Was voluntary compliance so widespread that heavy handed government policy had no marginal anti-flu effect? Something else?
The likely explanation is that, because the flu is significantly less transmissible than COVID, even states with "no restrictions" were able to knock it out because enough people took enough measures to protect themselves from airborne/surface communicable disease in general. In other words, you can probably beat back the flu significantly by having enough of the population mask up, wash/sanitize their hands, etc.
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s nothing silly about a novel virus having greater abilities to overcome barriers when compared to other pathogens that humans have had years decades and centuries to develop defenses again. At the end of the day it’s likely gonna be the result of a combination of all these factors.
> There’s nothing silly about a novel virus having greater abilities to overcome barriers when compared to other pathogens that humans have had years decades and centuries to develop defenses again. Agreed! What you are describing is viral interference: population-level immune responses to one respiratory pathogen causing suppression of others. We've seen selective suppression of influenza and all of the other four e…
Why would it not?
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#144Covid probably killed off flu in nasal passages kind of like the common cold does to other viruses
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#145An alternative explanation is that of "viral interference"[1,2], i.e., the most transmissible virus boosting up viral immunity in the population, and precluding transmission of the less transmissible/fit virus [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5489283/ [2]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5...
It's strange to call this an "alternative explanation", since it's the one that expert infectious disease researchers, nearly without exception, are pointing to. The (let's face it, silly) notion that masks and distancing suppressed all respiratory pathogens except one is a theory with very little traction, and which will almost certainly not stand up to serious scrutiny.
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you had flu symptoms, are you not going to go get a covid test?
I'm not OP but no, I work from home and only see the people I live with since this started. Knowing if its covid vs the flu wouldn't really matter much to me and either way my behavior would be the same. Frankly it would be worse for public health if I left the house while sick to satisfy my curiosity. I can imagine that many others in my situation would come to a similar conclusion.
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you had flu symptoms, are you not going to go get a covid test?
I'm not OP but no, I work from home and only see the people I live with since this started. Knowing if its covid vs the flu wouldn't really matter much to me and either way my behavior would be the same. Frankly it would be worse for public health if I left the house while sick to satisfy my curiosity. I can imagine that many others in my situation would come to a similar conclusion.
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There’s nothing silly about a novel virus having greater abilities to overcome barriers when compared to other pathogens that humans have had years decades and centuries to develop defenses again. Agreed! What you are describing is viral interference: population-level immune responses to one respiratory pathogen causing suppression of others. We've seen selective suppression of influenza and all of the other four e…
Sure, viral interference, yes; but I didn’t go inside a restaurant for 13 months. You’re saying that (and masking, and social distancing in general) didn’t affect influenza transmission? Why would it not?
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#149Just speculating here, but maybe because of false positives where flu cases get labeled as Covid? I've heard that PCR tests were not meant to be used for large scale virus detection. EDIT: The PCR test quote was fact checked and deemed to be misleading, but it still sounds like they are not very accurate [0]. [0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pcr-idUSKBN2442...
A Lancet article cited below references a paper that estimates much worse specificity of PCR tests for SARS-CoV-2 based on the specificity of tests for other RNA viruses (original SARS, MERS, influenza, etc.):
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.26.20080911v...
But why would anyone do that, when we have direct experience with the actual test for the actual virus?
Of course the false positive rate in heavily-affected areas may be higher, due to sample contamination--with more true positive patients, there's more opportunity for one true-positive patient to contaminate multiple samples. But such cross-contamination can occur frequently only if there are actually lots of true positive patients.
For another sanity check, the sensitivity of antibody tests is established on a sample of patients who tested positive by PCR, who are assumed to all be true-positive. So any PCR false-positive among those patients will show up as an antibody false-negative, so that bounds the apparent sensitivity of those antibody tests. But antibody tests show sensitivity around 85%:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
So even if the antibody tests were perfect, at most 15% of their positive sample was false-positive. (Note that this is a different quantity from the PCR specificity, and can't be translated into such without knowing the true prevalence in the population that the sample was drawn from.) Of course the antibody tests also aren't perfect, and I'd guess that 15% is almost entirely antibody false-negatives rather than PCR false-positives.
You can also compare reported COVID deaths (which are generally established by PCR) with year-over-year excess mortality. The agreement isn't perfect, but it's pretty close.
The vast majority of patients who test positive by PCR are or were infected by the virus. That's a different question from whether a positive test indicates the presence of replication-competent virus (i.e., whether the patient could infect others right now), since RNA from dead virus can trigger the positive too; but that dead virus had to come from somewhere.
Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not OP but no, I work from home and only see the people I live with since this started. Knowing if its covid vs the flu wouldn't really matter much to me and either way my behavior would be the same. Frankly it would be worse for public health if I left the house while sick to satisfy my curiosity. I can imagine that many others in my situation would come to a similar conclusion.
im in your situation: didnt need to leave my house and minimally interacted with people outside of my bubble. I felt sick recently and got the covid/flu test.