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My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

yifanxing.medium.com

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Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#751

Post by CryptoPunk »

cloudfifty wrote: post #750
CryptoPunk wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have time to run that experiment, and that wouldn't prove anything any way. Opinion polls don't tell us what the truth is about anything except opinions. There is no misogynistic narrative between the lines. That misogynists would exploit the facts I am presenting to push their narrative does not make me uttering those facts misogynistic. We cannot avoid certain ideas and discussions out of fear that bad peop…

> I don't have time to run that experiment How surprising, I wonder why. > Opinion polls don't tell us what the truth is about anything except opinions. If you honestly believe that there's some sort of objective "exactly here is the line, don't cross it!" I feel bad for you. > the facts I am presenting Facts? It was a blatantly fact-free reply with your subjective "takes"; - "maybe the old times was better because I…

>>How surprising, I wonder why.

It's surprising to you that someone did not fulfil a request from a random person on the internet who has been rude and angry toward them, while mischaractering their statements, to post their argument in another forum?

I even gave you a reason why it would be pointless, and yet you insist on making this passive aggressive accusation.

>>Facts? It was a blatantly fact-free reply with your subjective "takes";

I made an argument based on objective facts. If you'd like to discuss my argument, or whether the claims it is premised on are factually correct, we could do that, but your tone and attitude suggest you cannot entertain the possibility that my argument could be right, and that instead you'll just provide more caustic and sarcastic quips.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#752

Post by cloudfifty »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #751
cloudfifty wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have time to run that experiment How surprising, I wonder why. > Opinion polls don't tell us what the truth is about anything except opinions. If you honestly believe that there's some sort of objective "exactly here is the line, don't cross it!" I feel bad for you. > the facts I am presenting Facts? It was a blatantly fact-free reply with your subjective "takes"; - "maybe the old times was better because I…

>>How surprising, I wonder why. It's surprising to you that someone did not fulfil a request from a random person on the internet who has been rude and angry toward them, while mischaractering their statements, to post their argument in another forum? I even gave you a reason why it would be pointless, and yet you insist on making this passive aggressive accusation. >>Facts? It was a blatantly fact-free reply with yo…

> I made an argument based on objective facts.

If you think your first reply was based on objective facts you're delusional. It's full of your subjective assumptions:

> "We've tried the 'rawr girl power, women can do everything men can do' culture, and the result is scores of women being used and taken advantage of because they were not capable, emotionally/temperamentally, to be their own advocate in sex and dating interactions."

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#753

Post by 5560675260 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #664
koonsolo wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder when is something is legally considered rape. Like what you read in the article, when there was a lot of manipulation, but not really a "no", and a bad feeling during an afterwards.

> I wonder when is something is legally considered rape. Its kind of weird that this hairsplitting curiosity about consent always comes up exclusively in the context of rape and not other crimes with the same “without consent” rule, like battery (particularly since rape is, ina sense, just battery where the “harmful or offensive touching” element involves specific configurations of genital contact.) But its actually…

> Its kind of weird that this hairsplitting curiosity about consent always comes up exclusively in the context of rape and not other crimes with the same “without consent” rule, like battery

It isn't weird at all. There is no reasonable expectations of getting consent for battery outside of very specific scenarios.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#754

Post by esarbe »

stickfigure wrote: post #636
Pfhreak wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, that guy held several positions of power over her. Even in the most absolutely charitable reading, which is that this is a bad relationship (a reading I strongly disagree with) -- if you hold significant power over someone, you shouldn't be entering into casual sexual relationships. If you want to pursue that relationship, it can be done, but not carelessly. This isn't a situation where a one night stand…

> if you hold significant power over someone, you shouldn't be entering into casual sexual relationships I think this situation is stretching the word "power". There's a social power imbalance, sure - but nobody acts shocked when sports figures and rock stars sleep with groupies. Hell, they write autobiographies. We don't live in a caste system where people with X popularity can only sleep with other Xers. She didn't…

> If the guy was simply a better date we wouldn't be talking about this.

This is what makes me really dislike this story.

The use of power to extort sexual favors is topic that needs serious discussion. But occurrences like these where there is so much gray just waters down the conversation to "She said, he said".

So much in her post just insinuates that is wasn't his behavior at the time she was having problems with but his later actions towards her. Nothing in this accounting is about power dynamics. It is about shitty behavior by a stupid guy.

> I did not blame him for what happened, and didn’t think those behaviors were problematic at the time, because it didn’t even cross my mind that he would do anything that I wasn’t comfortable with.

Stuff like that doesn't really help. So - she was okay with it until she wasn't anymore?

This just sucks.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#755

Post by esarbe »

dragonwriter wrote: post #701
Humdeee wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article reads like she did not say no as much as she did not say yes, which leaves the reader in a muddled, grey area and unsure of how to interpret anything. Is she consenting, or more specifically, is she explicitly claiming to not consent? It's a very awkward article, leaving readers with more questions than answers at the end, which is never what you want your readers to feel when garnering support.

> This article reads like she did not say no as much as she did not say yes Yeah, if I beat someone up and they didn’t explicitly agree or explicitly ask me not to pummel them, no one is going to hem and haw about whether or not it was battery or whether it wasn’t because of secret unexpressed consent. But no, when the issue is battery-that-involves-sexual-penetration, *which legally had the same basic “without conse…

Beating someone up and having sex with them are two very distinct things. And saying sex is "battery that involves sexual penetration" is no helping either.

Just painting this as a simplistic "powerful male predator abuses helpless little female" does not help to move society forward one bit.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#756

Post by esarbe »

Pfhreak wrote: post #284
Humdeee wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article reads like she did not say no as much as she did not say yes, which leaves the reader in a muddled, grey area and unsure of how to interpret anything. Is she consenting, or more specifically, is she explicitly claiming to not consent? It's a very awkward article, leaving readers with more questions than answers at the end, which is never what you want your readers to feel when garnering support.

Consent is unambiguous and enthusiastic yes. The default assumption is that no consent is given. Not saying yes is the same as saying no.

This just leads to sill propositions and exclamations like "Now we all have to sign a contract before we kiss another!".

Human communication is complicated and complex and error prone. Combine it with sexuality and you have a mess.

There must be room for error and for dialogue. Humans are not binary machines. We're probabilistic ones.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#757

Post by esarbe »

Pfhreak wrote: post #85
the-dude wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what she says there. She says she felt uncomfortable and taken advantage of.

Being taken advantage of while intoxicated and while there was a significant power imbalance between the two. She was not in a position to give consent there -- being intoxicated, being in a place that was being rented Pretty (and she could risk being out on the street if she refused), having no money and luggage on hand, being the mentee of Pretty (or believing she could be), etc. She ended up crying and panicking.…

They were both intoxicated and Pretty is not a very big name, not even in the Scala community. It's not as if we were talking about Martin Odersky. The guy gives talks from time to time and contributes code to some projects. That's it.

> She was not in a position to give consent there [...]

Of course she was. If all the stated facts in her account are true, then Pretty was behaving like an asshole (In setting her up and then trying to get in her knickers). But she was absolutely in a position to consent. Otherwise you make it very easy for people to shed responsibility. Being in a shitty position doesn't absolve you from bad decisions.

> She ended up crying and panicking.

If that's true, Petty should have stopped right there and then. Pretty much an asshole otherwise.

That said; that's _her_ side of the story and while I'm not _not_ believing her, I'm also not making any judgement on Pretty.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#758

Post by adrienne »

oh_sigh wrote: post #494
kelnos wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seriously curious to know what kind of proof you would accept that would make you believe these accusations. I hear your sort of response a lot, but it's mostly from people who won't change their mind no matter what (and will continue to move the goalposts as more evidence comes to light), or set the bar so high that it's basically impossible to provide the proof they want.

Some evidence that would help would be conversations which were allegedly had, where one party clearly says "Don't contact me any more at all", and then later attempts of the other party to contact them. This isn't proof , it is evidence, but I think that would help a bit. Even if party A and party B disagree about something that happened, if party A says stop contacting me, and party B continues to do so, that is wr…

That evidence exists, in Yifan's case; i have personally seen receipts. Unfortunately i'm still banned on HN so probably nobody will see this.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#759

Post by DreamScatter »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #597

I think what's possibly needed is a return to a more traditional relationship and dating culture. In the past, if a man had a dalliance with with a woman and she got pregnant, he was expected to marry her. Now we expect women to have to be responsible for their own decisions the way men are, but women are generally more emotionally vulnerable than men, due to their more compassionate and less aggressive personalities…

Women are not more compassionate than men, that's false. Women have an instinct to take care of children (as do men), but this does not extend to society at large.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#760

Post by DreamScatter »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #693
DoreenMichele wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It essentially assumes incompetence on the part of women. That's not the only possible explanation. I don't even think it's the most plausible explanation. Social pressure and upbringing are large factors in human behavior and it takes time to make society-wide changes.

Is noting that women have two times less upper body strength misogynistic because it implies less competency in hand-to-hand combat or heavy manual labor? I'm assuming women are more compassionate and less aggressive, which makes women less competent in competitive settings where self-advocacy is important, and more competent in scenarios requiring cooperation and caretaking, like child-rearing. Whether these differe…

Women are extremely competitive and they are not more compassionate than men.
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