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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#411

Post by mytherin »

spangry wrote: post #374
mytherin wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The refined point (and all preceding points) are not based in any sort of actionable public policy. I would argue that that point is as much based in emotion as the leftist points the parent is talking about. Yes, it sounds good that in a fair society people should not be entitled to the fruits of someone else's work, except if they cannot work themselves. It sounds good to people of both sides. I would not label thi…

> The refined point (and all preceding points) are not based in any sort of actionable public policy. I would argue that that point is as much based in emotion as the leftist points the parent is talking about. Yes, it sounds good that in a fair society people should not be entitled to the fruits of someone else's work, except if they cannot work themselves. It sounds good to people of both sides. I would not label t…

The welfare systems of most (if not all) Western countries are inspired by this viewpoint, but take fundamentally different trade-offs. They do not action the viewpoint itself - the viewpoint clearly is not an actionable policy. It is also not a conservative viewpoint. I bet if you would ask people from both sides the majority will agree to some extent with the viewpoint.

The devil is in the details. I could take this viewpoint and take several trade-offs on the implementation which would result in either extremely left-wing or extremely right-wing policies.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#412

Post by seanhunter »

I don't voice political opinions in the workplace because I don't think that's what the workplace is for.

I don't "bring my whole self" to work any more than I "bring my whole self" anywhere else - different aspects of personality are appropriate in different settings. My family see different sides to me that others do not. Not only do I believe that's healthy, I believe it's normal and inevitable. I was also brought up to think that it was not polite to discuss politics or religion except with your closest friends. Generally this seems still to be good advice.

As a slight aside to people talking about "cancel culture" etc, where I grew up if you voiced the wrong opinions you could just disappear and never be found again. This is still the case in many parts of the world. Most of the time when people mention this they seem to inherently be speaking from a position of privilege where they believe they have a right to be listened to without consequence, which I'm not sure has ever existed.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#413

Post by dbrueck »

tstrimple wrote: post #398
SonOfThePlower wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The result is that world becomes more and more boring. No interesting discussion can take place. Environment becomes more toxic and it's mainly due to radicals who perceive everything as offensive and everybody who disagrees as "nazi" or "racist" or "-phobic".

I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. It's not hyperbole or an exaggeration. We did have a rally with a bunch of white nationalists exercising their "free speech" to chant "The Jews will not replace us" and they ended up murdering someone there. We had a National Security Advisor to the President of the United States promoting replacement theory. There a…

Applying those labels to people who are objectively and overtly acting that way is not the problem. The problem is that way too often people are assuming it's there. It's a presumption of intent, "racism is one possible explanation for your viewpoint, therefore I somehow /just know/ that you are a racist person".

Example: every recent white-cop-shot-a-black-person incident in the U.S. Not only is there widespread assumption of racism being the motivation (despite little or no evidence of that), you can't even /talk/ about parts of the problem without being labeled a racist. Heck, even /raising the question/ of whether or not the incident was motivated by racism will often get you labeled as racist. Want to discuss the practical benefits of being cooperative during a police encounter? You're racist!

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#414

Post by propertymagnate »

efaref wrote: post #127
samsari wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I support your right to say it doesn't mean I have to celebrate what you say, or why you said it.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

I don't agree with your comparison of the two terms above - and in fact I think they are complementary, not contradictory as you suggest. The right to speak has been to say unpopular opinions and be free from government oppression, not from social opinion.

If "freedom of speech MEANS freedom from consequences", as you suggest, then what would be the point of speaking with our absolute freedom, as no one would be allowed to form an opinion on it?

Freedom of speech has always meant "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences" in America, it is just that you have the right to say it and be free from government persecution. You can and will be judged on it socially, which is what this paper says is not right, as workplace employees are self censoring their views because people will take a principled stand on their opinions.

This paper seems to want people to be able to state exactly what they please and for there to be no social repercussions - which the first quote you have acknowledges there are.

"I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" contains "I do not agree", meaning that the individual who uttered it has made an opinion based on someone else's speech.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#415

Post by dvdhnt »

bjourne wrote: post #394
jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

Politics has a tendency to seep in. For example, at a job a long while ago a colleague made a "joke" about a gang rape that had recently been in the news. He started humming the Batman song and sang "Na, na, na, na, GANGRAPE, na, na, na, na, GANGRAPE, ...." I told him his joke was tasteless and offensive. He said it was "just a joke" and our colleagues mostly sided with him. Was he bringing politics into the workplac…

Um, I don’t think gang rape is political. That’s just poor taste and gross behavior.

Seems like people are conflating politics with decency...

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#416

Post by goodpoint »

tstrimple wrote: post #398
SonOfThePlower wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The result is that world becomes more and more boring. No interesting discussion can take place. Environment becomes more toxic and it's mainly due to radicals who perceive everything as offensive and everybody who disagrees as "nazi" or "racist" or "-phobic".

I'm not sure why everyone keeps scoffing at the idea of calling some of these folks Nazis or racists. It's not hyperbole or an exaggeration. We did have a rally with a bunch of white nationalists exercising their "free speech" to chant "The Jews will not replace us" and they ended up murdering someone there. We had a National Security Advisor to the President of the United States promoting replacement theory. There a…

You are pointing out that neonazi groups exists and did rallies.

Those groups often call for "free speech" and complain about being silenced.

Yet, *your* comment is being downvoted away and appears light gray to me.

This is really concerning.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#417

Post by Loughla »

giantg2 wrote: post #397
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

I've been one to speak my mind. I see myself as having been punished for it. I was doing work a grade or two above mine but was held back from promotion. So I didn't make senior developer on that team. Then I was even in jeopardy of losing my job over a statement I made (not vulgar, disrespectful, or anything) so I have to switch stacks a couple times to move out of a bad area of the company. I'm 9 years in and just…

Not to get too far into a debate about this, as we're well off the path of the article now, but I'm genuinely not sure if you've thought of this. Your argument:

>the discrepancy comes from the types of jobs that men and women are in.

only comes down to just being a moving the goal posts sort of thing from disparity in pay to disparity in expectation and opportunity for young men versus women. It's not a compelling argument against a gender pay gap, overall.

Using your own metric of a broad view, it's probably more of a problem than a specific man versus a specific woman, because it points to a theory that societal norms serve to re-enforce the expectation of taking jobs in lower paying fields on women versus men.

Anyway, any workplace that wouldn't let you have a conversation about this topic, in a respectful, non-bigoted way is maybe not a healthy place to work. The problem is, these types of arguments are (in my experience as a professional) a thin veneer of 'civility' over a massive ocean of bigotry and idiocy in many cases. I'm afraid employers take a hard line, because it's easy to slip into that ocean.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#418

Post by SkyBelow »

jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

One problem is what counts as politics. For a past example, someone talking about their opposite gender partner would not be seen as political as someone talking about their same gender partner. Someone talking about getting married may not think it is political, but when that action is denied to another group then merely bringing up marriage would be a political action. Even today there are still groups who cannot get married.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#419

Post by circlefavshape »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #295
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It looks like people are discoursing, but they are really just signalling. I was looking to put words on my feeling about this, and you did it perfectly. I was wondering why suddenly so many people voiced the same engaged opinion, while I know for having discussed with them in private settings that they don't think deeply about society. Now I realize that's because they want to look like they belong to a certain ki…

> It's not about ideas. It's about tribes. wonder what percentage of our likelihood to survive depend on ensuring we still are part of the tribe (e.g. signalling)? I think all communication other than the functional coordination of mundane things (can you pick the kids up today? how much for X etc) would fall into that category. Why otherwise bother with any of it at all? It seems there is perhaps a relation between…

In my more pessimistic moments I find myself moving towards the same conclusion. The vast majority of communication between people seems, at its root, to simply be sorting of in-group from out-group

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#420

Post by hn8788 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #357
twic wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reflects a peculiarly American perspective. This is now how the police operate in other countries. It is now how they should operate in the US.

By far the easiest way how to "operate" is to avoid bad neighborhoods and police them only very lightly, leaving a power vacuum for the local gangs to step in. Criminal-on-criminal kills do not elicit as much public response. Of course, the result is what the French call "lost territories of the Republic".

The "criminal-on-criminal" crimes may not make the news, but they end up being used to push for stricter gun control laws.If I remember correctly, the majority of gun violence and mass shootings is done with hand guns, is gang related, and mostly contained to some very violent areas in cities. Politicians and the media try to make it seem like the shootings are all done by right-wing radicals killing kids with AR-15s.
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