New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#321

Post by amalcon » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:13 AM UTC

secondcoming wrote: post #237

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you feel more comfortable in a company that openly encouraged / enforced political debate within a civil framework? Is the problem (in your company and the world at large) that open respectful political debate has not got a common set of rules / words? If there was a phrase "I respectfully disagree - I understand that ..." was a phrase used by every TV host, Politician and Facebook poster, would prefacing your…

Political debate used to have rules. Take this [0] debate between William F Buckley and Noam Chomsky about the Vietman War, for example. The two clearly detested each other but the debate was mostly civil. Christopher Hitchens' debate are others worth watching. Does these even happen any more in MSM? [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DvmLMUfGss

Western society seems to have gotten the idea that "debate" is either talking heads trying to shout over each other, presenting prepared arguments to random unprepared people and claiming victory when it takes time to respond, or simply presenting opinions back and forth without trying to justify them. This is tied to the (independent but both incorrect) notions that whoever has the last word in a debate is the winner, and whoever wins the debate is necessarily right.

I think it would be valuable to somehow expose ordinary people to structured competitive debate, if only because it makes many of these falsehoods evident. This kind of debate uses the rules to select the positions of the parties and when they get to speak. Obviously the last speaker doesn't necessarily win, and the winner doesn't necessarily even believe their own position (so the debate doesn't prove that position right). Yet still, it's much better at educating people on the issues than any "debate" that most people have ever watched.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#322

Post by anovikov » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:13 AM UTC

livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

I think in terms of politics, discussion today doesn't really matter and won't convince anyone. It's about identity, not opinions or facts, they don't really matter so when you are trying to argue with a conservative, he is right not to listen to you.

They may know that their worldview is all wrong, and they aren't fighting for it because it's right, but because there's nothing in for them in the alternatives: they need to preserve their black-collar workplaces for as long as they can, ideally till they retire (so they reject global warming and other concepts that definitely threaten them), they need value of their houses to stay or increase, or again they will never be able to retire, so they reject any multi-unit housing, affordable or assisted housing etc projects, and so on and so forth. They don't fight for their conservative ideas because they think they are right, but because they have vested interest in them being upheld at least for a while.

This is also why in Europe, politics is a lot less divisive. Because most people own nothing and have no vested interest in anything[sarc on], they are already on the hook of the Big State[sarc off]

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by briefcomment » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:14 AM UTC

samvher wrote: post #137

I might be one of these progressive activists, and this is interesting to read and reflect on. I am quite vocal about culture, hiring, compensation etc, though I would definitely not say that I feel "confident being vocal" - it actually feels very exposed and quite vulnerable (in part because others don't necessarily share their own views). The reason I'm still vocal about it is that I care, I would feel much more sa…

What are some of the points you’re explicitly vocal about?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by bellyfullofbac » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:15 AM UTC

oblio wrote: post #234

Aerroon wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics in English-speaking countries, particularly the US, seems to have partly become entertainment. Some of the "fans" appear more fervent than even the politicians themselves. I'm an outsider and even I've been drawn into US politics, because it is entertaining. Sometimes it's more entertaining than a fictional story. But I doubt that this makes for sensible governing.

Their election cycles happen every 2 years and I think there's no time limit for electoral advertising. So they're always promoting candidates, almost all year round. To top that off, they have only two parties and party affiliation is almost like supporting a sports club. A recipe for great objectivity.

I agree, it's all insane isn't it...

For neutrality's sake I'll say there's Team Green, and Team Yellow. When Green is in power, Yellow supporters might scream about a topic, like debt. Then Team Yellow comes into power. Spending goes crazy, Team Green supporters point out previous Team Yellow statements about debt, and their current conduct. What does the average Team Yellow supporter do? They don't listen, they don't try to analyze the stuff themselves, they listen to their own news media.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by krapp » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:18 AM UTC

twic wrote: post #275

msg3 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought? To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink. There is perhaps a separate discussion to be had about the…

Freedom from speech can only mean freedom from consequences, but virtually nobody thinks all speech should be free from all consequences. For example, if the government allows its critics to speak freely, but then puts them in prison [1], is that free speech? No. So because of a consequence, speech is not free. If someone says they hate you and want to kill your family, and you avoid them as a result, is that free sp…

> Freedom from speech can only mean freedom from consequences, but virtually nobody thinks all speech should be free from all consequences.

Then people should stop stating the former as an argument, because "all speech should be free from all consequences" is what it means.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by thrwyoilarticle » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:20 AM UTC

samsari wrote: post #114

arka2147483647 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In princible, the progressive left supports free speach. In practice, disagreement is met with explanations and accusations of ”shifting overton window”, ”new normal” and ”normalization”. Meaning that, Yes, you do have the right of free speach, but No, you should not be saying the wrong things.

Just because I support your right to say it doesn't mean I have to celebrate what you say, or why you said it.

This comment is greyed out on my HN, so it would appear the people disagreeing with you have chosen to do so by making your speech less visible.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by read_if_gay_ » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:21 AM UTC

oblio wrote: post #243

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engaging in real-life political discussions in the current climate is basically all risk, zero reward.

From what I remember, in polite circles it was always known that you should never discuss politics and religion with anyone except your immediate family and close friends.

Getting fired off a couple tweets is unprecedented though.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by fergie » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:21 AM UTC

At the time of writing there is violence on the streets of Northern Ireland due to a not unfairly held sense that NI has become more closely aligned with Eire that the UK, and an election in Scotland in which the nationalists are once again going to win a majority, with the stated aim of using this mandate to organise a referendum on independence (which current opinion polls show the public would support).

Yet ironically, in an article the purports to support "viewpoint diversity" in the UK, none of this is mentioned. Not even at a time when the UK is literally breaking apart (which sounds like hyperbole, but is not).

You could change the title to read "New evidence that _English_ workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity", and it would be less egregiously incorrect, but it would still lack perspective.

The whole article is basically a long-winded way of saying that English conservatives don't feel comfortable speaking up for what they believe in, and that is fair enough, with the caveat that conservatives views are now being treated with the same suspicion as, say, communist or republican views were a few years ago.

Also they seem to be using and spelling "polarisation" incorrectly.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by thrwyoilarticle » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

If you hire women, you're acting politically. And if you don't hire women, you're acting politically. Pretending that you're not political is the comfort of being in a position where those politics don't effect you.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Post by signal11 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 11:24 AM UTC

hilbert42 wrote: post #314

livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

"However, I fear the repercussions of offending others who do not have an open mind." You're dead right and it's damned terrible. I long for both formal and informal debates on many topics but without my opponents becoming annoyed or offended (as so often they do nowadays). These days it seems almost impossible to debate any subject without upsetting someone. I now long for the type of television programs that I reme…

About TV debates — A lot of these have moved to podcasts and YouTube these days. Eg the Oxford Union debates on YouTube, some of which are quite popular. I suspect some talk radio, eg PBS and BBC Radio 4, will also have interesting debates. Radio 4’s magazine programmes like The Life Scientific, In Our Time, The Public Philosopher, Reith Lectures etc certainly make for extremely interesting listening.