New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#41

Post by klyrs » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:27 AM UTC

notsureaboutpg wrote: post #17

wpietri wrote: post #13

Funny that they don't mention what "certain, commonplace views" people "stay silent" about. That might put a different spin on things. As I mentioned [1] about the Basecamp debacle, you can't get full "viewpoint diversity" and full "identity diversity" because some viewpoints are hostile to some identities. Given our society's long history of those viewpoints being endemic, and given the slow movement away from ident…

But many conservative viewpoints are not hostile to identities. If I don't agree with Affirmative Action, am I hostile to someone's identity? A majority of Californians at the ballot box will disagree with AA but none of them will say it out loud at the workplace. It's the misconception that identities are "opposed" by certain viewpoints that leads to this.

Many conservative viewpoints are perfectly acceptable to share in the workplace. Down with taxes, small government, privatize and monetize, down with regulations, etc.

Well. Except there's some lines. If you work in the oil industry and you complain about regulation of food products, fine. But if you complain about environmental regulations that pertain to your business and an inspector happens to overhear, then your company can expect the worst. So it's in your boss's interest to come down on you, even when the inspector isn't around to hear.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#42

Post by lmm » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:27 AM UTC

phinnaeus wrote: post #5

nanagojo wrote: post #2

This is a pretty bleak look at the future tbh. Guess the bullies won in the end, except this time the bullies believe they are in the right.

I feel pretty comfortable saying that all bullies feel they are right.

Nah. Plenty know that they're doing what they want at the expense of other people. But the bullies who think they're doing something good are the most dangerous, since they don't have any moral qualms about how far they take things.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#43

Post by anonytrary » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:27 AM UTC

ajkjk wrote: post #33

anonytrary wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really care about the article, but I've noticed a very real trend of "unconditionally believe in the product, don't second-guess or ask why we're building what we're building". To me, that's what viewpoint diversity should be about. Businesses always suffer from "but we're already profitable" bias. I'm sure there's a Wikipedia article for this phenomenon -- where you are making profit and therefore lose the d…

(fyi! that quote is actually attributed to Upton Sinclair)

You're right! That jogs my memory -- I think Wales himself mentioned in the podcast that "someone else said it" but he couldn't remember either.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#44

Post by neallindsay » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:28 AM UTC

Advocating for “viewpoint diversity” is sometimes just code for “I don’t want to be held accountable for my racist views”.

Not all political opinions should be tolerated in the workplace. White supremacists, if allowed to run unchecked within your company, will push out people of color. Misogynists will push out women.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#45

Post by guythedudebro » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:29 AM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #12

ajkjk wrote: post #3

I don't trust this article. The phrase "Losing viewpoint diversity" is of course crafted to make it sound like a chilling trend. Pretty clear what they want you to think about it. But if you drill into what that's referring to, whether you think it's a bad thing is entirely up to what you think of how the viewpoints are changing. "Fewer racists than ever" also maps to "less viewpoint diversity" but is totally a good…

For the same reason I always look skeptically on other research about "polarization". The trend tends to be that in the past it was common for otherwise-sane people to advocate crazy stuff like bans on interracial marriage. Now the only people who are against interracial marriage are straight-ticket crazy people, and this sorting of society is superficially "polarization" but I can't find the negative in it, because…

Replace interracial marriage with something like abolish the police. Is the ethical/sane choice still clear cut?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#46

Post by elefanten » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

prince781 wrote: post #32

nanagojo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author links to https://hbr.org/2019/07/are-politically-diverse-teams-more-e...

So this is a study about political diversity where it's specifically relevant to the organization's work. In this case, Wikipedia. I'll admit that political diversity is necessary when the "product" is unbiased articles written on politically controversial topics. But how would this affect how a software company develops products, how a car manufacturer develops cars, etc, where political diversity is not relevant?

Well, if one accepts the argument that identity-based diversity among the workforce is important to more fully represent the perspectives of everyone in society... then that logic extends to political diversity and other kinds of viewpoint/idea diversity as well.

Seems those decrying the article are often aligned with the one diversity assumption... curious why they seem to be rejecting the others.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#47

Post by KMag » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #12

ajkjk wrote: post #3

I don't trust this article. The phrase "Losing viewpoint diversity" is of course crafted to make it sound like a chilling trend. Pretty clear what they want you to think about it. But if you drill into what that's referring to, whether you think it's a bad thing is entirely up to what you think of how the viewpoints are changing. "Fewer racists than ever" also maps to "less viewpoint diversity" but is totally a good…

For the same reason I always look skeptically on other research about "polarization". The trend tends to be that in the past it was common for otherwise-sane people to advocate crazy stuff like bans on interracial marriage. Now the only people who are against interracial marriage are straight-ticket crazy people, and this sorting of society is superficially "polarization" but I can't find the negative in it, because…

> Now the only people who are against interracial marriage are straight-ticket crazy people, and this sorting of society is superficially "polarization"

I'm not sure which metric of polarization is typically used in studies, but the situation you describe (vast majority agreeing, with a tiny minority in an extreme position) intuitively sounds like approaching consensus.

Intuitively, with some survey measure of 0 to 10, maximum polarization would be 50% of respondents responding 0 and 50% of respondents responding 10. Minimum polarization would be 100% of respondents giving the same answer (regardless of what that answer is). I would hope that any polarization metric being used in a serous study would give its maximum value in the former case and its minimum value in the second case.

Variance of survey responses is one statistical measure meeting these criteria, but there might be better measures. Minimum Kullback-Leibler divergence, or earth-mover's distance, from any consensus distribution might also make sense, or a fractional statistical moment less than 2 about the mean.

In any case, tons of people believing one thing and a tiny fraction of people believing something radically different doesn't fit my intuitive notion of polarization. My intuitive notion is closer to variance of survey responses, or earth-mover's distance from any consensus.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#48

Post by treeman79 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #40

anonytrary wrote: post #6

This happens in American workplaces, too. In my experience, most people at tech startups think the same, especially non-product people (anyone who isn't in engineering, design or product). If you want to unconditionally love the mission of your company, chances are you have to set aside your own personal opinions. It is statistically very unlikely that your personal viewpoints are exactly parallel to the company's. N…

> Having an outsider's viewpoint is going to be extremely valuable in the coming years, but it's currently out of fashion. This is wishful thinking, and I've seen no indication that the current groupthink is going to do anything but grow more dominant.

Had to leave one job already. Bashing white people on company meetings while going on about wonderfully diverse they were.

Their disdain in having to hire a white guy was constant. Product was falling apart since they had nothing but juniors of the correct races sexes and orientations.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#49

Post by axguscbklp » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:36 AM UTC

ajkjk wrote: post #39

axguscbklp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are now at the point that any further attempt to eliminate racism by force comes at the cost of suppressing accurate perceptions of reality. At what point would it stop being worth it to you to get rid of some small additional number of racists if the cost is massive damage to free speech and rational investigation of reality? Also, are there really "fewer racists than ever" now? Anti-white racism has been on the…

> are there really "fewer racists than ever" now? Yeah, probably. If you don't believe this you are probably not as aware as you could be of just how incredibly racist the world was a single generation ago. (Some would say it's still racist, sure, not the point here). > Anti-white racism has been on the rise the last few years. a little bit of it, but not really a fair comparison given the many-orders-of-magnitudes o…

Single generation? Sure. But do you think there are fewer racists now than there were 10-20 years ago? I doubt it. I have the sense that we passed a low point in racism a few years ago and it has been increasing since then.

>not really a fair comparison given the many-orders-of-magnitudes of difference

As far as I can tell, anti-nonwhite racism in the United States has very little power. Orders-of-magnitudes of difference? I do not see it.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#50

Post by throwawaysea » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 3:39 AM UTC

This is definitely not just a British phenomenon. American workplaces have little to no viewpoint diversity these days, and no psychological safety for anyone who is moderate or conservative. Corporations have adopted numerous political stances that are right in the middle of the culture wars - support for Black Lives Matter, support for trans activists' stances, support for affirmative action (racially discriminatory hiring practices), and so on. Reasonable viewpoints like not supporting the BLM organization due to its Marxist founders, or not support transwomen's participation in women's sports, or wanting race-neutral hiring are not allowed. If you display any of these opinions, chances are you will not only be a social outcast at work, but that you'll be fired for "putting others at risk" or "creating an unsafe work environment" or "not representing the company's values" or any number of other vague justifications.

I initially thought this trend would be confined to Google and Facebook but it is everywhere now, including non-tech companies, government agencies, schools, universities, hospitals, and so on. Every space has been turned by dedicated activists into a battlefield for politics, usually with room only for one set of viewpoints (progressive ones). In the case of schools, they have been turned into indoctrination centers as radical activist curricula have replaced more balanced, standard material - all without parents' knowledge or consent.

For those worried about viewpoint diversity in our society, please consider following or supporting some of the organizations that are speaking up below, and consider supporting school choice (https://reason.com/2021/01/27/viewpoint-diversity-will-get-a...).

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Foundation for Individual Rights in Education AKA FIRE (https://www.thefire.org/)

Heterodox Academy (https://heterodoxacademy.org/)

Reclaim the Net (https://reclaimthenet.org/)