Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

Post by true_religion » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

md_ wrote: post #135

motohagiography wrote: post #110

It's probably unwise to think prosecutors and federal agents are stupid. They were in the 1990s crypto wars, but not now. What we tend to perceive as 'stupid' is in reality, 'powerful.' They don't need to explain themselves, because they put the onus of compliance on you. Gaming out the subpoena, Signal does not have this user information because it does not exist, but it does have server locations, 3rd party service…

This is one of those posts that sounds truthy because it makes a bunch of broad assertions. ;) Legal systems are peopled by people. Just like other systems. Unlike many other systems, the American legal system is in fact highly distributed—so it's hard to say things like "The System is out to destroy you"; individual agents of that "system" might have different, misaligned, or antagonistic goals. Much of this is by d…

Post by bberenberg » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #127

bberenberg wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having sat on a grand jury, the 95% is because it's a rigged system. The DA has to convinces 50% of the people that there is a 50% chance that their one sided story is possibly true. This is a lower bar than individuals are held to at cocktail parties.

So it may not be great, but what’s the alternative? The prosecutor decides independently when to bring charges? Is that better? It just seems to skip a step.

Post by vineyardmike » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #117

rocqua wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subpoena is dated 29 march. That puts it before the celebrite blog. Hence, it cannot be a response to that blog.

Fair and astute observation, and it implies prosecutors have been rounding on Signal for months at least before the Cellebrite blog post as well. However, it also means there was already a snare set for them before the post. I would still not underestimate what these people are capable of. If they want to get you, they will find a way to get you.

Post by dharmab » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

Dah00n wrote: post #63

raverbashing wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But trial by jury continues to be used in several countries (maybe in more restricted ways but it still a thing) or is there something special about a "Grand Jury"?

To add to the other comment a Grand Jury is also often made up of jurors called in using the prosecutor's private phone contacts. A few ex-cops and former work buddies. People also go to jail because of misuse of power by grand juries. There's a great documentary on Netflix but I can't remember its name right now. Suffice to say there aren't grand juries in any well working and fair justice system. It's abuse and/or…

Post by vineyardmike » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #111

mike_d wrote: post #23

The subpoena is from Homeland Security Investigations at LAX airport. They deal specifically with crimes that involve international transport. So this is human trafficking, drug smuggling, money mules, etc. To be honest the rest of it is just standard "we have some phone numbers" boilerplate. Same thing was probably sent to Facebook, Twitter, etc. with the hopes that someone was dumb enough to login and check their m…

> They deal specifically with crimes that involve international transport. So this is human trafficking, drug smuggling, money mules, etc. So Signal is being used for human trafficking? And they are deliberately making it easy to do that kind of activity on Signal without law enforcement knowing? Sounds like the app stores should ban them and AWS should kick them off. I disagree with the above sentiment, but I think…