What really drives the poor • Hacker News Board

Re: What really drives the poor

#51

Post by Lost_BiomedE » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 10:55 PM UTC

mcantelon wrote: post #17

wccrawford wrote: post #6

They finally hit on the real story halfway down: "“Generally, it is clear that things that make life less boring are a priority for the poor,” they write in their new book." Yes, the poor spend their money unwisely when they have extra. That's the real reason. If a rich person finds themselves down on their luck, they knuckle down and work really hard to get into a situation where they can afford to buy luxuries. It…

>It isn't about lack of opportunity. It's about wise choices. ...and knowing wise choices exist. If you're brought up to just get by and the people all around you have the same mentality knowing that there's a superior mentality requires looking outside the box. This is where mentorship and real education (beyond education that conditions you to just show up on time) are valuable.

Agree. Dow chemical had a program where they would employ people from welfare families. They had to explain to them telephones, teach them about being on time, teach them to file (sometimes the alphabet as well), etc. Most came in for a week and left. Working was such a foreign concept to them, their families, and community that it did not make any sense to them. It is similar to the fish in water analogy or a reverse of 'if you want to be self-made rich hang out with self-made rich people'

Re: What really drives the poor

#52

Post by forensic » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 10:58 PM UTC

MaysonL wrote: post #40

Unseelie wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have entirely and completely missed the point. The point is that they are buying things that make their lives better. They aren't buying things that make themselves healthier, no, but they're buying things that make their lives bearable, and you're making the assumption that that's an 'unwise' choice. Their preferences aren't in the line of work hard for nine months, they're on doing well enough to have a bearabl…

A single, healthy man in a developed economy.

Who didn't even finish his own experiment. He ejected after 9 months when shit got real.

The poor don't have an eject button. This is the whole fucking problem.

Re: What really drives the poor

#53

Post by chrismealy » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:04 PM UTC

chrismealy wrote: post #49

Mike Konczal: Here’s the normal story. Picture you are in a room with 10 people. Each of them has a slice of cake. How much you are willing to pay for a slice of the cake is the ‘marginal utility’ of having it, and the more cake you have the less any more cake is worth to you. You’d be willing to pay a $1 for the first slice of cake, but you’d only be will to pay 90 cents for the second slice. You’d only be willing t…

The point is that solving one problem feels attainable, but having dozens of problems just makes you feel hopeless and resigned.

Re: What really drives the poor

#54

Post by Duff » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:05 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #38

I barely made it half-way through the article, it sounded like an United Colors of Benetton add adapted into a Nobel-winning Economics paper. Just a couple of gems that made me skip it: """ they may well be more driven by ideas, simply because they have less information about the world outside """ So, supposedly, us, the rich people, live in the "real" world, why them , the poors, live in a world from which they cann…

I share your disgust. Personally, I have a real problem with academics or journalists who go on a junket to a third world country and act like the people around them are animals in some zoo.

Look at any western family for a similar period of time and no doubt you will spot all sorts of bizarre dysfunctions or irrational behavior, regardless of wealth.

People are people.

Re: What really drives the poor

#55

Post by zem » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:07 PM UTC

daniel-cussen wrote: post #48

wvoq wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi. I'd like to see if I can offer you some personal insight about the plausibility of extrapolating evidence from the scenarios you describe into broader policy judgments. Currently I'm in a Ph.D. program in a field I find extremely interesting, and am quite happy with my position relative to my goals and background. A few years ago, however, I was living in a one room apartment above an auto body shop, sharing a ki…

>"The basis of their diet, therefore, is white bread and margarine, corned beef, sugared tea and potatoes -- an appalling diet. Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do…

why do you need to invoke calories? cooked food is tastier than raw food (okay, that could be an evolutionary bribe to cook your food, but i doubt it given the time scales involved). likewise, tv is a cheap form of entertainment, and requires very little energy to watch (energy that might not be left, after a hard day, for more involved pursuits).

Re: What really drives the poor

#56

Post by Someone » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:09 PM UTC

hooande wrote: post #33

wccrawford wrote: post #6

They finally hit on the real story halfway down: "“Generally, it is clear that things that make life less boring are a priority for the poor,” they write in their new book." Yes, the poor spend their money unwisely when they have extra. That's the real reason. If a rich person finds themselves down on their luck, they knuckle down and work really hard to get into a situation where they can afford to buy luxuries. It…

From a statistics point of view, your argument seems to be flawed. It's very unlikely for someone who is born poor to end up rich, no matter how wise their choices are. From the wikipedia page on "Economic Mobility" [1]: "Children previously from lower-income families had only a 1% chance of having an income that ranks in the top 5%" I can't imagine that making perfect decisions for one's entire life would change tho…

"Children previously from lower-income families had only a 1% chance of having an income that ranks in the top 5%"

That phrase is almost devoid of content. In the extreme, both that statistic and

   "Children previously from lower-income families had a
    90% chance of having an income that ranks in the top
    25%"

could be true. I would be surprised if that was the case, but I couldn't find the data to proof that in that link you posted, either. What I would like to see is the distribution of upward/downward mobility.

Re: What really drives the poor

#57

Post by lsc » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:13 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #6

They finally hit on the real story halfway down: "“Generally, it is clear that things that make life less boring are a priority for the poor,” they write in their new book." Yes, the poor spend their money unwisely when they have extra. That's the real reason. If a rich person finds themselves down on their luck, they knuckle down and work really hard to get into a situation where they can afford to buy luxuries. It…

Tell me. Is defending your betters on a internet form likely to make you more rich? Are you making a good choice by wasting time on hacker news? or one that is likely to leave you in your current financial position?

From your comment history, I'd guess you are no more wealthy than I am, and much like me, you are not significantly more wealthy than your parents. Of course, this is just a guess based on little information, but the self-made rich people I know? they do rather than talking about doing.

It's actually fairly rare for people to change from their parent's class. Heck, most of the 'super rich' success stories are people who come from rich parents becoming super rich; I mean, I don't want to disparage Bill Gates achievements; but you need to recognize that he started with parents who could afford to send him to Harvard.

I mean, I think most people agree that a conscientious and hard working person can better their economic situation, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you seem to think it is. First, going from middle class to upper class requires very different skills than going from abject poverty to the low end of working class and from there to middle class.

It's interesting, 'cause I've lived most of my life as an upper middle class person, but for the last few years I've been living on a working-class salary, as I'm trying to get my business of the ground. It's very different, and I can see how someone who wasn't particularly punctual about, saying, paying bills or tickets on time (something that doesn't matter at all as a sysadmin with a six figure salary) could easily get over their head on a working-class salary. Really, I'd be having a very hard time of it if I didn't have the business with it's reasonably large cashflow to give me a 'bonus' when I get into a really tight spot.

Re: What really drives the poor

#58

Post by lsc » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:15 PM UTC

felipemnoa wrote: post #46

paganel wrote: post #38

I barely made it half-way through the article, it sounded like an United Colors of Benetton add adapted into a Nobel-winning Economics paper. Just a couple of gems that made me skip it: """ they may well be more driven by ideas, simply because they have less information about the world outside """ So, supposedly, us, the rich people, live in the "real" world, why them , the poors, live in a world from which they cann…

"that was the only way to get into CS school" Couldn't you just have gone into a community college and move on from there. It is a lot cheaper and lot of the professors are actually pretty good. If your grades are good you should be able to transfer into a decent 4 year college.

If his family is living on USD$1 per day, most likely he's not from a country that provides such services.

Re: What really drives the poor

#59

Post by Unseelie » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:17 PM UTC

chrismealy wrote: post #49

Mike Konczal: Here’s the normal story. Picture you are in a room with 10 people. Each of them has a slice of cake. How much you are willing to pay for a slice of the cake is the ‘marginal utility’ of having it, and the more cake you have the less any more cake is worth to you. You’d be willing to pay a $1 for the first slice of cake, but you’d only be will to pay 90 cents for the second slice. You’d only be willing t…

This is a brilliant example, but even after reading the article, I feel like it needs a stronger connection to the problems of poverty.

So, anyway, Guys, the situation where you're in a room where people are screaming is poverty, but its only one moment of poverty. In poverty, you go into that room over and over and over again. You can't afford to keep your whole reality quiet, but you can buy a moment or two of peace, by paying more money than you can rightly afford to spend, if you've a longterm goal to support. You may go into debt for a TV to relieve the oppresive boredome, or spend change you shooldn't on a sweet, to eat something nice.

Those breif respites are massively appealing, even though they don't last, and very possibly set you back, because remember, you're living in a situation where everyone is always screaming. A moment's peace is worth not making it out.

Re: What really drives the poor

#60

Post by Unseelie » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:25 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #38

I barely made it half-way through the article, it sounded like an United Colors of Benetton add adapted into a Nobel-winning Economics paper. Just a couple of gems that made me skip it: """ they may well be more driven by ideas, simply because they have less information about the world outside """ So, supposedly, us, the rich people, live in the "real" world, why them , the poors, live in a world from which they cann…

I do not understand your point. Yes, there's fucked up situations in every economic status, but if we follow your argument to its roots, that each level of economic welfare has the same level of utility to its members, you're arguing that healthcare, decent food, and basic shelter are without value.

You've said your parents are perfectly fine, and ergo, no-one else is worse off.