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Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

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Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#121
post #118
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that the key machines to produce chips are built in Germany and Netherlands. Not in Korea, not on Taiwan. The robots that assemble the electronic circuits are also largely built in EU. (And, of course, in Japan, too.) What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. It was the nimbleness of that…

> What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. Um, the CNC machines that iPhone production uses are actually made in the US and shipped to China because the Chinese CNC machines can't handle the tolerance. So, why is Apple shipping it there then? Cheap labor is the answer. And, why is Apple starting to ship pr…

It appears that it wasn't the cost per se, but the colossal desire of the Chinese companies, with the help of Chinese government, to get Apple's business. This let Apple meet pretty crazy deadlines: https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen...

Maybe a price that would allow such speed in an American company exists, but likely it's sky-high.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#122
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing but you comment could be rewritten and still be true: >The US is steamrolling us, because 1) they think and act strategic, 2) size-wise, they are not one country but many countries and city-states working as one and 3) they are beating us at our own game because we have a slavish devotion to WTO principles while they will use protectionism if it benefits them. This is as true overall IMO. I'm not…

But China is doing things no one else is doing. Requiring a local partner, giving up your IP to them and/or “security reviews”, not letting through many companies to give their own home grown a chance (eg Facebook, Google, etc), currency controls, currency manipulation, exploiting the global postal system to facilitate being export-oriented, inaccessible courts that never punish IP theft and abuse, the list is quite…

> local partner, ip transfer. This was a thing 30 years ago in certain industries, ex cars. Now, we have enacted a foreign investment law that uses a negative list to manage market access. And any foreign entity in China is equivalent to a Chinese entity, so equal access to government regulations, law, legal facilities, etc. Today car, industrial, health care, and many industries can fully operate on their own. I know Tesla and BMW fully owns its operation in China. Tesla enjoys the same EV subsidies as Chinese EVs. The phase 1 deal with the US also opened up stock market, banking, other financial services. JPMorgan, Morgan Stanley all have businesses in China today.

We didn't force businesses to enter IP transfer. They weighted the cost benefits of market access and made the decision on their own. And there were negotiations. We offered market access, what did they offer in exchange. And you can imagine there were complex rules and strings attached with the deals. And its not always about IP being exchanged or a full transfer of IP. Or IP used in their Chinese ventures are few generations old and no longer market competitive globally, but in China it still was. Obviously companies are not stupid, they operated with their best interest in mind. The fundamental point is these agreements are bilateral and consensual.

>not letting through many companies to give their own home grown a chance (eg Facebook, Google, etc) Inaccurate. To operate in China you need to adhere to Chinese laws and regulations. Notably the 互联网安全法, 网络信息管理条例. They state internet information service is responsible for the content and the content must abide by following rules. This results in the "censorship" people experience. The key point is these laws are not discriminatory. Whether its Chinese or US businesses, the service can operate if they abide by the rules. Google.com, Facebook.com etc chose not to adhere to them so they cannot operate. But Bing, LinkedIn for example is available. Internet services that deals with people saying stuff on the internet is the hardest to comply, others are easier. And a lot of internet services are available. Ex cloud computing (AWS, Azure, Office365 ), E-Commerce (Amazon, Kindle), icloud, app store, Airbnb, oracle and many others. Google does have business presence in China still, Ex Ads. Google could make different products available if they decide.

> inaccessible courts that never punishes IP theft. Not sure about how it is now. IP protection is getting a lot stronger these days. For Chinese government and the courts, its in their interest to protect IP, whether for Chinese or foreign companies. And any sizable Chinese company will have foreign markets, foreign companies can sue them in their home country. So these days Chinese companies have to take IP rights into consideration during their business development.

> Currency manipulation, artificially lower currency. I think the consensus from economists is that China is not artificially lower currency. In the past 12 months. RMB to USD went up by 10%.

Lastly I think any trade related issues are negotiable between China and US governments. For example, we opened financial markets after US phase 1 trade deal. The EU and China investment deal has lots of provisions on market access, no IP transfer, fair treatment and competition, rules on state subsidies, rules on state owned firms and non-discriminatory commerce etc. The deal also creates an arbitral tribunal framework for settling disputes.

We are not looking to dominate US or the west. We are looking for an equal, cooperative and win-win relationship. Both the US and China can be prosperous. It doesn't have to be zero sum game. Only one can win and the other must fail. Any trade related issue is always up for negotiations. The question is whether US will want to negotiate or seeks to destroy china.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#123
post #121
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. Um, the CNC machines that iPhone production uses are actually made in the US and shipped to China because the Chinese CNC machines can't handle the tolerance. So, why is Apple shipping it there then? Cheap labor is the answer. And, why is Apple starting to ship pr…

It appears that it wasn't the cost per se, but the colossal desire of the Chinese companies, with the help of Chinese government, to get Apple's business. This let Apple meet pretty crazy deadlines: https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen... Maybe a price that would allow such speed in an American company exists, but likely it's sky-high.

> Maybe a price that would allow such speed in an American company exists, but likely it's sky-high.

The Chinese one was sky-high, too. It's just that the Chinese government ate the cost.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#124
post #69
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, why aren’t we destroying the environment in Europe more? This is a great question. Kids these days have it too easy. They barely get any lead in their water.

lol, "destroying the environment". News flash: shifting the environmental costs to China is not "saving the environment", it is just outsourcing the environmental damage to somewhere else, where more likely than not worse damage will occur than if the factory was located in Europe. If there was a general call to not use chips, it would be a different matter. But this is about personal sanctimony, not environmental im…

Obviously I don’t want industrial chemicals in China’s groundwater, either. You aren’t actually interested in good faith discussion, but you do seem to enjoy being angry, so keep doing that I guess.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#125
post #118
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that the key machines to produce chips are built in Germany and Netherlands. Not in Korea, not on Taiwan. The robots that assemble the electronic circuits are also largely built in EU. (And, of course, in Japan, too.) What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. It was the nimbleness of that…

> What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. Um, the CNC machines that iPhone production uses are actually made in the US and shipped to China because the Chinese CNC machines can't handle the tolerance. So, why is Apple shipping it there then? Cheap labor is the answer. And, why is Apple starting to ship pr…

Good to know that China was able to buy the German robot manufacturer KUKA then. The German government is really getting slapped left and right.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#126
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is trying to do the mercantilism thing as well. I think the fundamental differentiation is the degree of state involvement, Han nationalism etc.. I don't want to use this word because it's a trigger and possibly misleading but 'Fascist' might actually be the best word to describe what China is right now. The economy is not centrally planned, but managed in coordination with major actors who often seem to want…

One thing I plan to do is to read "The doctrine of fascism" and compare it to the Lee Kuan Yew book about the building of Singapore, and with some good accounts of China's current policies. There must be a number of parallels, but also divergences.

Deng Xiaoping admired Lee Kuan Yew, visited Singapore, and copied his approach in reforming the Chinese economy, starting with the Special Economic Zone in Guangdong, which included delegating substantial power to the local secretary, later governor, Xi Zhongxun ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Zhongxun#As_Guangdong's_top...

... the father of Xi Jinping.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#127
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then one answer is to impose tariffs on end services and products, on nations that don’t meet the same environmental concerns. The tariffs should match the cost of said overhead.

Couldn't agree more. that would be a consistent position to hold as it wouldn't cause a net harm by driving manufacturing to places with terrible environmental records. It wouldn't be as good as sponsoring research and capital investment to create cleaner manufacturing processes, which would actually improve the situation. The combination of rigid environmental/labor practices in the developed world with an equally f…

Yes.

It’s caused numerous cultural and environmental problems.

Look at the sad state of the US today.

We didn’t even have the production capability to make n-95 masks.

Meanwhile, company spokesmen tell us that if we want change we should push our legislators; while having wholesale monopolies on lobbyists who do everything they can to ensure offshoring is extremely profitable.

Which grows the warchest of those screwing us over that much more.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#128

Around 2004 I visited the chipmaking industry in Dresden on a university field trip. We went to AMD and to AMTC (Advanced Mask Technology Center). It looked like they were doing pretty well, they were increasing production capacity and also doing research, and AMD and others were investing a lot of money. I think now the whole campus belongs to Globalfoundaries. It is really sad how the domestic/western production be…

I live in Dresden. We do 70nm chips, whilst Taiwan and China are doing 7nm already. We can only do special chips nobody else wants to do. AMD already left, there's only Global Foundries and Infineon, plus some smaller local ASIC and FPGA makers. Dresden is big in embedded, kernels and automotive. But chip making is helpless.

Kernels, on the other hand, is something we have a huge advantage over everybody else. Amazon with its FreeRTOS and L4 based companies are here. Xen is from here. And tons of embedded. With chinese chips and sensors and german kernels.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#129
post #118
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that the key machines to produce chips are built in Germany and Netherlands. Not in Korea, not on Taiwan. The robots that assemble the electronic circuits are also largely built in EU. (And, of course, in Japan, too.) What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. It was the nimbleness of that…

> What made Apple to order their iPhone production from a Chinese company was not the availability of relevant hardware elsewhere; certainly the US has it. Um, the CNC machines that iPhone production uses are actually made in the US and shipped to China because the Chinese CNC machines can't handle the tolerance. So, why is Apple shipping it there then? Cheap labor is the answer. And, why is Apple starting to ship pr…

Well, that’s not the full story. Skilled manufacturing expertise, culture [0], and speed of iteration matter too.

[0] apparently they once moved 12K workers from one line to another at midnight for a last minute design change

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#130
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. Despite constant screeching about its imminent demise, the EU still hasn't failed. And "Europe", at least as we think of it, only goes back to Renaissance diplomacy at best, but realistically to the Peace of Westphalia.

In our country, Roman law is the dread of every law school freshman.

Funny, I did some time in law school and legal history (in particular Roman law) was always my favourite part. I've had years of Latin and Greek education and come from a Latin country, so that helps.

But the quasi-universality of Roman legal principles is itself very recent, and didn't start to emerge before the late 1700's, very much in the spirit of statecraft launched by the Westphalian era.

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