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Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

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Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they have different values. One of the things politicians say is "we are going to follow science" to avoid making a value decision. Science can tell you the risks/benefits/tradeoffs of a decision, but you have to ultimately make a value judgement about the best course of action. Science can tell us various things about what the wolf does and what its loss or population reduction is expected to do within a certain…

As you said, both sides can follow the science and make different value judgements. Unfortunately that rarely seems to be the case. For example, the pandemic, it seems most people agreed that shutdowns and masks were acceptable to save that many lives. However, politicians did not make the trade-off argument. They generally just challenged the science completely. First, that the pandemic was even real, then that it w…

I think you’re misrepresenting the other side. Trump JR never said covid wasn’t real, he said “it would disappear the day after joe Biden was elected” the suggestion from the context being “Democrats are blowing the situation way of of proportion for political gain”.

The conservative argument on the danger of the virus is that it’s dangerous to old people and those with preexisting conditions, but not very dangerous to healthy people who are relatively younger. This is a valid subjective interpretation of the science. Whether something is safe or dangerous is a value judgement.

The CDC originally said don’t mask, that you can get it from surfaces, that it spreads through the air instead of droplets. For the lockdowns, the conservative argument was that they were too extreme given the costs, something like “destroying the global economy disproportionately hurts the people least affected by the virus: labor, small business owners, children, students, and so on, while having little effect on the relatively richer but more affected old”. The point was that lockdowns didn’t justify the costs.

I don’t agree with most of this, but you’re so far off the mark with the strawman of these arguments that I don’t think you’ve seriously understood them beyond immediate dismissal on partisan grounds.

If we did this pandemic over again, but it was a dem President going into an election year, I think Dems being anti lockdown would’ve been the most obvious outcome, because lockdowns hurt the exact people the party calls its constituents: lower classes, people of color, labor, young people, etc, while most benefiting the wealthier and older population.

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#32
post #30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er what? Coyotes don't eat deer.

They do eat young deer.

Found reports even of adult deer, and even moose. But they did need some advantages. Deer predation was noticeably lower during winters with less snow. Leading factors for moose hunting were things like:

* deep crusted snow that the prey couldn't run on top of, but the coyotes could

* steep (40-45 degrees) slopes (harder on large animals)

* dense tree cover (makes whirl and kicking less effective)

* lack of deer

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#33
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they have different values. One of the things politicians say is "we are going to follow science" to avoid making a value decision. Science can tell you the risks/benefits/tradeoffs of a decision, but you have to ultimately make a value judgement about the best course of action. Science can tell us various things about what the wolf does and what its loss or population reduction is expected to do within a certain…

As you said, both sides can follow the science and make different value judgements. Unfortunately that rarely seems to be the case. For example, the pandemic, it seems most people agreed that shutdowns and masks were acceptable to save that many lives. However, politicians did not make the trade-off argument. They generally just challenged the science completely. First, that the pandemic was even real, then that it w…

Take a look at other countries. Brazil isn't the only country in the world and things were handled quite differently.

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#34
post #28
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's the long and short of it, idaho is a super conservative state (which generally resent environmentalism) with a powerful farm lobby. https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...

My gut reaction to “conservatives generally resent environmentalism” is that it’s wrong. I know you mean from a policy standpoint, but the people who live most in nature, who feel most at home outside concrete jungles and actually experience the environment are overwhelmingly conservatives. I wonder if it’s liberals and conservatives looking from different vantage points. Liberals see massive cities and sprawl and ca…

I dont think that accurately describes the reality nor opinions of either group.

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#35
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ranchers don’t like it when wolves kill livestock.

that's the long and short of it, idaho is a super conservative state (which generally resent environmentalism) with a powerful farm lobby. https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...

Its environmentalism that is usually produced in big citys far away from nature. Those laws usually land like alien ships in rural areas, completely oblivious to the damage they deal to someones existence.

Example: Promote beavers everywhere- beavers are terraforming animals, flooding fields and carving out caverns beneath the soil, into which tractors sinks and breaks.

If you report that "damage" you get compensated (here in europe) - aka you get 50 $ for 5000 $ damage. And you then get to read that you, the evil farmer, were compensated by the nature lovers in the local newspaper.

Real dangerous animals are promoted as "friendly co-existing species" and evidence to the contrary buried. Coyotes and wulfes will attack humans, when easy food runs out and times are desperate - winter & numbers high, or opportunity knocks, aka they spot irregular movements (children, elderly).

Again, this is all legislation parked on people who experience the beauty of nature every day. And that beauty is rather grim and dark.

Seems that here is a ecosystem of environmentalists and environment dwellers, where one overpopulates and expands laws, only then to run into the other, and be fought back in a fury.

Nature returns, the world is healing, our absolutes are the virus.

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ranchers don’t like it when wolves kill livestock.

that's the long and short of it, idaho is a super conservative state (which generally resent environmentalism) with a powerful farm lobby. https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...

I find the opposite to be true, democrat managed states produce more emissions and despite being branded as environmentally-friendly, prove otherwise by supporting anti-growth initiatives that ultimately reduce our ability to tackle environmental issues.

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#37
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's the long and short of it, idaho is a super conservative state (which generally resent environmentalism) with a powerful farm lobby. https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...

Its environmentalism that is usually produced in big citys far away from nature. Those laws usually land like alien ships in rural areas, completely oblivious to the damage they deal to someones existence. Example: Promote beavers everywhere- beavers are terraforming animals, flooding fields and carving out caverns beneath the soil, into which tractors sinks and breaks. If you report that "damage" you get compensated…

Post Scriptum:

In my observation, its usually people with a bad consciousness from their work for a cooperation, who join a compensation cult. Which is a immature reaction. Cause these cults do not really act, they merely display action, which then promptly falls apart longterm. Displayed action is NOT real longterm action and change. Its smoke and mirrors, hollywood, not real. A Potemkin village and a bad framework to create real change.

If you want to change the world, the state,politics and the law is the only way to act properly and persistent. For within the framework of law, people can acquire proper compensation for law caused property devaluation and then live and let life.

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#38
post #28
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's the long and short of it, idaho is a super conservative state (which generally resent environmentalism) with a powerful farm lobby. https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...

My gut reaction to “conservatives generally resent environmentalism” is that it’s wrong. I know you mean from a policy standpoint, but the people who live most in nature, who feel most at home outside concrete jungles and actually experience the environment are overwhelmingly conservatives. I wonder if it’s liberals and conservatives looking from different vantage points. Liberals see massive cities and sprawl and ca…

Right. What does that mean for the topic at hand?

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#39
post #28
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's the long and short of it, idaho is a super conservative state (which generally resent environmentalism) with a powerful farm lobby. https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...

My gut reaction to “conservatives generally resent environmentalism” is that it’s wrong. I know you mean from a policy standpoint, but the people who live most in nature, who feel most at home outside concrete jungles and actually experience the environment are overwhelmingly conservatives. I wonder if it’s liberals and conservatives looking from different vantage points. Liberals see massive cities and sprawl and ca…

tl;dr - Conservatives decided they were against it as soon as they saw the left was for it.

The anti-environmental stance on the part of Conservatives is a result of Reagan-era policies meant establish a pro-business, anti-regulation base among corporate donors and undermine Jimmy Carter's legacy[0].

Also, after the 1960s, environmentalism became associated with "leftist" politics via feminist and antiwar activism (the hippie movement.) Trump's heavily mocked tweet about climate change being a Chinese hoax comes from this longstanding general mistrust among Conservatives that environmentalism has a secret Marxist/Communist agenda behind it, due to those associations.

Finally, there's Al Gore. Much of the modern distrust of climate change (and by association, environmentalism) is fallout from effective Republican Party propaganda mocking his activism, and particularly An Inconvenient Truth.

[0]https://www.vox.com/2017/4/22/15377964/republicans-environme...

Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor

#40
post #31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you said, both sides can follow the science and make different value judgements. Unfortunately that rarely seems to be the case. For example, the pandemic, it seems most people agreed that shutdowns and masks were acceptable to save that many lives. However, politicians did not make the trade-off argument. They generally just challenged the science completely. First, that the pandemic was even real, then that it w…

I think you’re misrepresenting the other side. Trump JR never said covid wasn’t real, he said “it would disappear the day after joe Biden was elected” the suggestion from the context being “Democrats are blowing the situation way of of proportion for political gain”. The conservative argument on the danger of the virus is that it’s dangerous to old people and those with preexisting conditions, but not very dangerous…

> Trump JR never said covid wasn’t real, he said “it would disappear the day after joe Biden was elected” the suggestion from the context being “Democrats are blowing the situation way of of proportion for political gain”.

And that's factually wrong. COVID is a BIG DEAL and has not been blown out of proportion; the countries that didn't treat it as such, like Sweden and Brazil, are now feeling the pain.

> but not very dangerous to healthy people who are relatively younger. This is a valid subjective interpretation of the science.

All available science suggests that COVID can cause permanent issues with cardiovascular function, even in healthy adults.

Just cuz polio didn't kill you doesn't mean it couldn't, say, leave you wheel-chair bound.

Additionally, the hospitals are full. You may not have much to worry about COVID, but if you're in a car crash or fall off a roof or get stabbed you won't be able to get treatment -- they just don't have the space / time / bodies.

> the conservative argument was that they were too extreme given the costs, something like “destroying the global economy disproportionately hurts the people least affected by the virus: labor, small business owners, children, students, and so on

More bollocks. What in the past 30 years has the conservative wing of the GOP ever done for labor, small businesses, children, and students? This is the party that is openly and aggressively stomping on all those groups -- and now is arguing in their favor? What BS. They're not concerned with these people in any way, save for using them as a political cudgel to force re-openings -- re-oepnings that were unambiguously asked for by big business.

> I don’t agree with most of this, but you’re so far off the mark with the strawman of these arguments that I don’t think you’ve seriously understood them beyond immediate dismissal on partisan grounds.

It sure sounds like you do. If you're rehashing questionable talking points for the sake of discussion (the Alex Jones "I'm just asking a question") -- you're effectively just advocating for it.

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