The health benefits of better air • Hacker News Board

Re: The health benefits of better air

#91

Post by Greek0 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:19 AM UTC

adamjb wrote: post #8

How is it possible to separate DALYs lost from high BMI from DALYs lost from low vegetables and/or low physical activity? The author never fully explains the methodology behind the graph.

I don't understand how the author arrives at the conclusion that "[air quality] is often the most effective health intervention, period".

How do you take that away from the plots? If you're in the US my prime take-away would be to keep your BMI in check.

The first graph shows ~2 deaths per 1000 people per year. Surely more than 2 persons/1000/year die in those countries. What are the causes for the other ~10-15 deaths/1000/year?

Given the information in the article, I don't see anything to support the central thesis about air quality. The reasoning for it is so thin that I have no idea whether it's true or not.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#92

Post by emptybits » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

EVs reduce tailpipe exhaust near roads but it's worth noting that brake abrasion dust isn't going away anytime soon and it's considered very bad to breathe, possibly in the same league as diesel emission particles.[1] I guess regenerative braking on an EV reduces this somewhat.

Tire dust is also concerning.[2]

[1] https://academic.oup.com/metallomics/article/12/3/371/595624...

[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22642836/

Re: The health benefits of better air

#93

Post by randomsquared » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:21 AM UTC

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #34

Having lived in Central America, I can tell you that almost none of the recommendations[1] here are relevant, at least in relation to the kind of air pollution that kills the numbers of people shown in those graphs. Smoky fires (mostly for cooking) inside small huts are everywhere in much of the world, and very few of the affected people understand the risks. Even if they did, they rarely have any viable alternatives…

Even here in Poland. People burn anything to stay warm, oil even. The unhealthy pollution starts in November then ends in March. The entire time everyone, including children, are outside, pretending like it's not a problem. People running in the streets. And when you bring it up to people they get angry. Schools don't close, everyone continues like it's normal.

I'm moving back to the west coast USA soon. I could live in a shack and my family would be better off. People complain about the wildfires, but in Poland they get it every year, and for longer. Try forbidding your kids to go out(too young to wear a mask) the entire winter... Even if you somehow make the perfect environment at home, those kids will eventually have to physically go to school and brave pollution. Before the pandemic I was the only crazy one with a mask during high pollution days. If kids wore a mask because of pollution then I was told they would be ostracized.

So, other than that elephant in the room, it's a perfect country.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#94

Post by pasabagi » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #70

modeless wrote: post #28

I'm surprised this doesn't mention gas stoves and ovens. Gas is the "high end" option, yet creates totally unnecessary PM2.5 pollution in your home. Children growing up with gas stoves have higher rates of asthma.

> Gas is the "high end" option Few years ago I moved from a little apartment with an electric range to an SFH with gas everything. "Good for you," my gas-enthusiast family said, "now you have a REAL stove" It still takes forever to boil water in a pot. The food tastes the same. I wonder why furnaces have these fancy high-efficiency heat exchangers and stoves don't? Cost? I wouldn't mind going back to electric. I just…

I think the point is control.

Induction stoves are pretty good for dumping watts into water. However, it's very hard to get a good mid-range temperature. Gas makes it really straightforward to get something cooking at exactly the heat you want.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#95

Post by DeRock » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

porb121 wrote: post #63

acwan93 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve thought about this while cycling to work that I’m inhaling a bunch of exhaust, but with the push to EVs will this no longer be an issue? Dust and particulates that settle on asphalt will still be a problem though.

EVs still have tires and brake pads. There's less pollution, but not none.

Regenerative braking largely solves the brake pad issue. Some EVs are efficient enough that brake rotors rusting over from not being used is a concern.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#96

Post by gonehome » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #70

modeless wrote: post #28

I'm surprised this doesn't mention gas stoves and ovens. Gas is the "high end" option, yet creates totally unnecessary PM2.5 pollution in your home. Children growing up with gas stoves have higher rates of asthma.

> Gas is the "high end" option Few years ago I moved from a little apartment with an electric range to an SFH with gas everything. "Good for you," my gas-enthusiast family said, "now you have a REAL stove" It still takes forever to boil water in a pot. The food tastes the same. I wonder why furnaces have these fancy high-efficiency heat exchangers and stoves don't? Cost? I wouldn't mind going back to electric. I just…

I think it used to boil faster? My grandma replaced her stove and noticed it took forever to boil. The service guy said regulations around the volume of gas have increased the time it takes to boil water.

No idea if that's true or not, but I'd believe it.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#97

Post by Thlom » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

emptybits wrote: post #92

EVs reduce tailpipe exhaust near roads but it's worth noting that brake abrasion dust isn't going away anytime soon and it's considered very bad to breathe, possibly in the same league as diesel emission particles.[1] I guess regenerative braking on an EV reduces this somewhat. Tire dust is also concerning.[2] [1] https://academic.oup.com/metallomics/article/12/3/371/595624... [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2264…

One of the problems with EV’s is that the brake discs are rusting because they almost never gets used.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#98

Post by dcolkitt » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:28 AM UTC

The biggest pitfall I see with this is we’re extrapolating from large doses of air pollution to very tiny ones.

Clearly we have enough evidence to say that smoking a pack a day or living in a smog-filled city will cut years off your life. But we would need truly gigantic samples to show that blowing birthday candles or broiling fish once a week will cut weeks off your life.

Instead these conclusions are being derived on linear extrapolations from large air particulate doses. Yet many things in biology follow the principal of hormesis, where a small dose or a toxin may be harmless or even helpful.

Similar models have been used for years and are still the gold standard when predicting the health effects of radiation exposure. Yet mountains of evidence show that radiation workers, who are regularly exposed to small dosages of otherwise harmful regulation do not have anywhere near the cancer rates we’d expect from the linear extrapolation models.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#99

Post by 3dee » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:28 AM UTC

Lately I start to wonder if the symptoms of covid-19 are worse in areas with high air polution.

India is an example but in parts of the Netherlands where we have the worst air quality in Europe, we also see this.

It's hard to tell. But having a respiratory disease in an area of bad air quality won't help you.

Re: The health benefits of better air

#100

Post by dash2 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #4

Related: https://samharris.org/the-fireplace-delusion/

Man, that article is a bummer! I grew up in a house with an open fireplace and for long periods we literally used it to cook on (out of poverty, not choice). Those are some of my happiest memories. And now some crazy "rationalist" wants to take away my open fire? IT'S ALL LIES I SAY.