And yet here in the UK we are thinking of reintroducing wolves, as has already been done with beavers.
Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
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Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#12I have mixed feelings on this. Humans modify their environment to benefit themselves. We eliminated the Grizzle Bear from California and I kinda think that is appropriate. I do believe predators benefit the ecosystem to a point. Using this same logic, would humans benefit if we had predators hunting us? I bet a lot of the pro-predator rhetoric comes from people living in urban areas with little connection to rural li…
I’m pro-wolves because they are a keystone species that keeps the entire ecosystem in check.
I’d happily let predators into my urban area, cause the deer and geese cause their own damage. If some house cats get eaten, that’s not so bad for the native bird population either.
Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#13"The Idaho Fish and Game Commission, which manages the state’s wildlife, opposed the measure. " Then why are they doing it? This sounds like a bad decision being made in haste. Why not explore options like relocating them to somewhere they're needed?
Legislators and people on the internet know better than scientists.
Or they have different values.
One of the things politicians say is "we are going to follow science" to avoid making a value decision.
Science can tell you the risks/benefits/tradeoffs of a decision, but you have to ultimately make a value judgement about the best course of action.
Science can tell us various things about what the wolf does and what its loss or population reduction is expected to do within a certain confidence interval. Politicians are the people, ultimately charged with taking that information and making a value decision about what to do.
Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#14We should not be interfering with key-stone species.
Humans have been interfering with key-stone species for millenia. Lions used to be relatively common throughout the Middle East, but it seems during the Neo-Assyrian Empire were hunted to extinction. I believe the Romans drove a lot of animal species in North Africa to extension because of the circuses.
We need a much more nuanced analysis than just don't interfere with a key-stone species.
Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#15"The Idaho Fish and Game Commission, which manages the state’s wildlife, opposed the measure. " Then why are they doing it? This sounds like a bad decision being made in haste. Why not explore options like relocating them to somewhere they're needed?
Ranchers don’t like it when wolves kill livestock.
that's the long and short of it, idaho is a super conservative state (which generally resent environmentalism) with a powerful farm lobby.
https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...
Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#16And yet here in the UK we are thinking of reintroducing wolves, as has already been done with beavers.
they did. we paid a lot of money to reintroduce wolves. you did, your taxes did.
https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2020-01-14/25-yea...
https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w...
same thing in michigan.
it's emblematic of how the culture has shifted far to the conservative. environmentalism is out, the farm lobby is powerful, and now we'll straight-up shoot the wolves we spent so much time reintroducing.
at this point it's just another bullet in the culture war more than anything. farmers want them gone and doing so will piss off the libs, so why not?
> “That was the camel’s nose,” says former Gov. C.L. “Butch” Otter. “The unintended consequences were the fact that after the introduction, even with the denials, the populations of wolves exploded, the federal government had control of them, and they weren’t going to turn it over to the states.”
killing the wolves will piss off the libs and show Washington who's boss and that's what conservative states want.
Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#17I have mixed feelings on this. Humans modify their environment to benefit themselves. We eliminated the Grizzle Bear from California and I kinda think that is appropriate. I do believe predators benefit the ecosystem to a point. Using this same logic, would humans benefit if we had predators hunting us? I bet a lot of the pro-predator rhetoric comes from people living in urban areas with little connection to rural li…
Smaller towns here in the northwest that have developed suburbs over the last decade or two are overrun with deer, because coyotes have been displaced. It's a real problem.
Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#18The old "we need to continue destroying the ecosystem because we created unforeseen problems by destroying the ecosystem"
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Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#19We should not be interfering with key-stone species.
Humans have been interfering with key-stone species for millenia. Lions used to be relatively common throughout the Middle East, but it seems during the Neo-Assyrian Empire were hunted to extinction. I believe the Romans drove a lot of animal species in North Africa to extension because of the circuses. We need a much more nuanced analysis than just don't interfere with a key-stone species.
The effect of removing keystone species has been extensively studied, particularly with respect to wolves.
Just google "keystone species" and the first result features a case study on grey wolf removal and restoration in Yellowstone: https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/keystone-s...
Wolf impact on livestock is minimal, coverage is overblown, and in most states is investigated and compensated for by state authorities.
This is a terrible political move.
Re: Bill to kill up to 90% of Idaho wolves heads to governor
#20And yet here in the UK we are thinking of reintroducing wolves, as has already been done with beavers.
they did. we paid a lot of money to reintroduce wolves. you did, your taxes did. https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2020-01-14/25-yea... https://www.idahopress.com/postregister/farmandranch/idaho/w... same thing in michigan. it's emblematic of how the culture has shifted far to the conservative. environmentalism is out, the farm lobby is powerful, and now we'll straight-up shoot the wolves we spent so much ti…
Sometimes I think we should have open season on farmers - bullies, over-entitled, funded by our taxes, people that close off public rights of way, and so on - that's the stereotype of the farmer for most urban UK citizens. Possibly the same in the US.
Having said that, possibly some animal introductions are not particularly desirable. My younger brother was once savaged by a coypu (not a European species) in the French countryside, and had to have stitches and tetanus and rabies injections. Also, they destroy river-banks.