Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

yifanxing.medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

601–610 of 779 posts

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#601

Post by Fern_Blossom »

cogman10 wrote: post #303
Fern_Blossom wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. >And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. Don't complain…

> That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. Have you ever worked with an embassy? I have, it's no picnic even in the best of circumstances (lost passport). It takes time to setup such an appointment and you are expecting a young college student to have the wherewithal to navigate that all while being on a budget and having their current lodging with the aggressor. You are expecting an abus…

At no point do I blame the victim. I really want to know where you come off thinking I'm blaming the victim. Get off your emotional ego trip. I blame this rabid social media society that makes a victim imagine they are completely helpless. You make victims feel more helpless by saying there's no one out there willing to help.

If someone is wronged, there is a process is most countries, especially western ones. They, as a victim, need to start the process in some way to make sure justice happens. None of it is secretive. No one, ever, should make anyone feel powerless to do so.

"To do everything right"? Did they go to the police? That's basic step one. Why are you making this seem so difficult? I'm really failing to understand how that's so difficult when you're an adult traveling the world. Your narrative makes future victims think it's not an option. Don't you get how incredibly harmful that is? Then, when you're traveling, your embassy is where you go if something criminal has happened to you. That's another basic to know, or in all seriousness, you shouldn't be an international traveler. This new age society is making people unable to have agency in their own lives to take any action. Yes, you're not going to John Wick problems. But holy shit, a majority of the world has a criminal justice process. Stop pushing a narrative that victims should just wallow in depression instead of pushing for justice. Making blog posts isn't the answer and will only let it happen more often.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#602

Post by throway98752343 »

ALittleLight wrote: post #418
Pfhreak wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does it take months and therapy for her to decode those clear signals? Because brains aren't just bundles of logical interpreters that fully understand what they are experiencing all the time. There are many, many reasons why we may rationalize some behavior in the moment. Why do victims of cons sometimes defend the con artists for significant periods of time after they leave? Why do humans hold out hope for lo…

I think the paragraph that you identify as a strawman is actually the core of our disagreement. I don't intend it as a strawman of your idea but as an illustration of why I struggle to accept the idea that you can retroactively change whether or not you consented - or, phrased in a way you might be more likely to agree with, whether or not you can reevaluate your consent decisions after the fact. If she doesn't know…

> If she doesn't know whether she genuinely consents to sex or not, then how is it morally acceptable to have sex with her?

Thing is, this is all a nonissue if your partner is enthusiastically into having sex with you.

So maybe more mutually fulfilling romps and less "well it was borderline but I did it anyway."

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#603

Post by stadium »

analognoise wrote: post #543
stadium wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy was a predator, there was a clear pattern of sexual and emotional abuse.

"Predator" also implies the other party had no agency. It's this weird thing that keeps popping up...

Educate yourself on narcissistic abuse for more info.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#604

Post by tene »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #533

General PSA from someone who has studied such things: 1. Alcohol is the number one date rape drug and it's problematic in part because men tend to have a much higher tolerance than women. 2. Date rape frequently involves two people from different cultures with different social expectations. This often fosters terrible misunderstandings. 3. It's always problematic to "try a case" in the court of public opinion. Probab…

I'm curious if you or anyone else can share more detail or some examples regarding cross-cultural differences in societal expectations.

I've got some guesses about what this might mean, but I haven't studied this, and don't have any personal experience here.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#605

Post by stadium »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #536
DoreenMichele wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we parents need to get better had having conversations with our children around sex. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I thought long and hard about this and decided that talking to my children about the existence of sexual predators would rob them of their innocence. I've studied how this works. Sexual predation almost never starts with rape. It starts with myriad instances of boundary violation and disrespe…

My wife told me something a while back about how girls are often taught from a young age to be "sweet" and to defer to adults who demand their affection. I can't remember if it's something she read or came to herself upon examination of her youth. I can see the way that this idea on boundaries can grow to adulthood to having difficulty strongly advocating for oneself. The philosophies you laid out resonate strongly w…

My grandma had a campfire saying that "smoke follows beauty." I realized many years later as an adult that it was part of a subconscious family mythology, handed down for who knows how many generations. If you're pretty, it's your fault for unwanted attention (smoke).

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#606

Post by voces »

GavinMcG wrote: post #593
voces wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even think she is at fault, and I do feel for her. From what I gather she was the victim of some extremely shady and uncouth man, who did make sure he didn't do anything illegal. It is not going to lengths: just a few percent chance it was something more innocuous like that (or someone terribly regretting they did not forcefully say "no", so in their mind they said their thoughts out loud), and it would deman…

If he didn't do anything illegal, then your suggestion that she poke his eyes or break his finger is entirely misplaced. You don't get to hurt people when they're not legally a threat to you. Never mind how ridiculous a suggestion that is. Do you think maybe she made the rational decision not to risk her safety or even her life by escalating a fight she likely couldn't win? That's blaming the victim. You can say you…

> the rational decision not to risk her safety or even her life by escalating a fight she likely couldn't win

The rational decision is to get the hell out of there, then call her dad or a friend. Giving in without a fight to what you consider to be rape by a Scala programmer is the poorest decision you could ever make, and I shudder to think any of my loved ones would be panicked enough to even entertain it.

> the situation she was actually faced with

Yes, a long chain of bad decisions to end up drunk on your own wine, in a foreign country, in the apartment of a stranger you met on the internet, making unwanted advances towards you. Please don't make it worse by staying and accepting your "fate".

I don't care about illegal or not. This is my advice: If you say "No". And you repeat "NO!". And he still advances. Then he is a threat to you, and you get to hurt him badly, I'll pay the bills. If you don't want to have unprotected sex with someone, be clear about that, and make sure to hurt any penis without a condom coming close after that. If you don't want any confrontation and feel drunk or disoriented, lock yourself in the bathroom, and call someone to come deliver a pizza.

Would feel better too, to act right then and there, and not crop up all that anger to release it later in a damaging story. But the named person in this story is fucked either way, so perhaps dish best served cold.

I feel for her. I feel for him. I feel for you. I feel most of all for myself, for getting sucked into this.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#607

Post by DoreenMichele »

tene wrote: post #604
DoreenMichele wrote: post #533

General PSA from someone who has studied such things: 1. Alcohol is the number one date rape drug and it's problematic in part because men tend to have a much higher tolerance than women. 2. Date rape frequently involves two people from different cultures with different social expectations. This often fosters terrible misunderstandings. 3. It's always problematic to "try a case" in the court of public opinion. Probab…

I'm curious if you or anyone else can share more detail or some examples regarding cross-cultural differences in societal expectations. I've got some guesses about what this might mean, but I haven't studied this, and don't have any personal experience here.

A fairly obvious one: If you are from a culture where sex before marriage is permissible and you are a woman, men from cultures where women are expected to remain virgins until the wedding night may see you as "a loose woman."

In such cases, they may even feel entitled to have you and get very mad if you try to tell them no.

People from very conservative cultures tend to wildly misinterpret the actions of women from more liberated and empowered cultures. Her behavior may be viewed as promiscuous or as leading him on when she's doing no such thing.

Some cultures expect a man to have to pursue a woman pretty hard before she says "yes." I read one article where a man from such a culture was sort of frustrated or disappointed when his lady from another culture gave it up too easily in his view. He wasn't happy at not having to "work for it."

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#608

Post by lukasb »

Grieving wrote: post #534
lukasb wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 1% of rapes lead to felony convictions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than... Same article notes that between 2-8% of rape complaints are false. Worries about false rape claims are wildly overblown.

>2-8% of rape complaints are false Complaints is the key here. Obviously, we can't say much about the incidents that don't go reported. If one looks at the conviction rate for rape complaints it's around 2%. So if we take the lower estimate for false complaints, it still means that only 4% of cases are provable one way or the other, and that those which are have a 50/50 chance of being true or false complaints. (I'm…

"only 4% of cases are provable one way or the other, and that those which are have a 50/50 chance of being true or false complaints."

Not prosecuted != not provable. Not provable != false.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#609

Post by Manuel_D »

Pfhreak wrote: post #85
the-dude wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not what she says there. She says she felt uncomfortable and taken advantage of.

Being taken advantage of while intoxicated and while there was a significant power imbalance between the two. She was not in a position to give consent there -- being intoxicated, being in a place that was being rented Pretty (and she could risk being out on the street if she refused), having no money and luggage on hand, being the mentee of Pretty (or believing she could be), etc. She ended up crying and panicking.…

I don't know what the law is in Germany, but here in California the threshold for alcohol isn't intoxication it's incapacitation. What happens if two intoxicated people have sex with each other? They're both simultaneously rape victim but also rapists?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#610

Post by lukasb »

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #582
lukasb wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What proof would satisfy you? How is a victim of rape supposed to be able to supply that proof? Should women wear body cams at all times?

The devil is in the details. Every case is different and should be judged on the merit of testimony of those involved and actual evidence. Due process and presumption of innocence are good things. Always believing accusers isn't a good principle. It enables and emboldens abusers not acting in good faith, especially people with narcissistic and borderline personality disorders

Okay, can you give an example of evidence that you would accept in this specific case?
Post reply on HN