Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk • Hacker News Board

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#91

Post by masterzora » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 4:38 PM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #72

masterzora wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we follow that reasoning, all early-stage startups are screwed since they don't have any smart people working for them!

Nah, they're working for so little with the promise of big dividends down the road.

They still have to be okay with the significant probability that they end up having worked below market value. Many of the smart people I know working at startups are perfectly okay with this because they love what they're doing and the potential big dividends is just a really nice bonus.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#92

Post by lispm » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 4:58 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #61

lispm wrote: post #59

My impression is that there are already way too many people working for the military industrial complex. It would be much better if the US would scale down their oversized military and then it also might consider working on goods that advance the life of people and which might actually be interesting to others so they can be sold. The military jobs is actually one reason the US lacks competitiveness in some areas (se…

As a counter argument, consider DARPA. They do important R&D that no one else do. (As far as we know; it is a relatively open process). You could make quite a good argument that military, academic and industrial research are partly orthogonal; they complement each others. But I can agree that to waste money and really build the military equipment is mostly a waste of money. :-)

The D in DARPA is for 'Defense'. For some time it was just ARPA. They added the D so that nobody makes the mistake to misunderstand the nature of their research: advanced research for military. Automated warfare, weapons of the future, soldier of the future, robot drones, ...

The other stuff like material, sensors, etc. is just basic research needed for weapons.

I would propose to shift the research money to projects like cleaning up nuclear weapon production sites, energy efficiency, cleaning the old coal power plants and more. Probably more people are endangered by the emissions of the aging coal power plants than from enemies in foreign countries...

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#93

Post by siculars » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:31 PM UTC

I don't think you could pay me enough to work for the government. As a geek, I am of the opinion that geeks care very little for bureaucracy which the government is by definition. Not that this article is about working for the government but rather "geekifying" the employees of tomorrow. What they can do is create programs to whet the appetite of impressionable young minds from every background. Those that take to it will persevere. Others will not. Let's not forget that this is not Soviet Russia where people became what they were told to become.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#94

Post by Periodic » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:39 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #35

programminggeek wrote: post #17

I think that part of the problem is in how geeks are trained and what they work on. For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. Most end users of said software don't like it and have zero appreciation for the people who made it. Outside of Silicon Valley being a geek isn't…

For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. For what it's worth, nothing requires Enterprise software to be big, ugly, boring, hard to use, etc. Maybe I'm biased, since I'm working on an Enterprise Software startup, but I think this stuff can be damn interesting. Then agai…

From my experience of working in a large enterprise, it's that people don't really buy the software, they buy the support, the ecosystem, and (buy into) the sales process. In our case we were finally going to implement online code-review. There were plenty of "cooler" products out there, and my team tested a few of them, but ultimately the company decided to go with another company because it was established, their sales guy came out and schmoozed, and they liked the support contract that was offered over having to maintain things themselves.

I think the successful companies that make the boring software have simply realized that the cool-factor of the software is not a major selling point in their market.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#95

Post by InclinedPlane » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:42 PM UTC

natesm wrote: post #88

InclinedPlane wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quibble: Silicon Valley isn't the only place where being a geek is cool, the Northwest is a perfect example (especially Portland and Seattle).

Boston, or rather, Cambridge... we have a certain school here.

Cambridge perhaps. Boston much less so. I've been there, it doesn't compare to Seattle or Portland in being geek friendly.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#96

Post by Periodic » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:00 PM UTC

mavelikara wrote: post #54

mattdeboard wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was mainly responding to the, "Pay people to go to college for CS" statement. My point: Disqus has been hiring for QUITE a while, very vigorously. I know for certain they are getting a ton of applications. I'm really quite sure they're offering market value for the kind of talent they're looking for. So, what's the problem? I'd wager they're having trouble finding people talented enough and who make a good culture…

> I'm really quite sure they're offering market value for the kind of talent they're looking for. So, what's the problem? The OP seems to suggest that offering _significantly above_ the market value would be the solution.

If you were a smart and talented computer programmer and you saw a headline on HN, "Disqus doubles salaries, and still looking to hire", you might be more inclined to check them out than if they were just offering market rates.

A weird thing about programmers is that they aren't used up when they are bought. They aren't consumed. There is just a minimum benefit that needs to be perceived before it becomes worthwhile to switch from that well-paying and comfortable job.

If you're having a shortage, double your salary/benefits. It should get you a lot more interest from talented people who might otherwise be off the market to you.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#97

Post by Periodic » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:04 PM UTC

masterzora wrote: post #91

mattdeboard wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, they're working for so little with the promise of big dividends down the road.

They still have to be okay with the significant probability that they end up having worked below market value. Many of the smart people I know working at startups are perfectly okay with this because they love what they're doing and the potential big dividends is just a really nice bonus.

It would be really hard for me, in the current stage of my career, to justify working for a startup unless I knew the expectation value of the returns aren't at least comparable to traditional jobs. The investment money wouldn't be there either.

I wouldn't really be a smart rational economic actor if I hadn't judged it to be profitable over my other options, though I admit there is more to it than just money.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#98

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:04 PM UTC

masterzora wrote: post #91

mattdeboard wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, they're working for so little with the promise of big dividends down the road.

They still have to be okay with the significant probability that they end up having worked below market value. Many of the smart people I know working at startups are perfectly okay with this because they love what they're doing and the potential big dividends is just a really nice bonus.

[deleted]

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#99

Post by shadowfox » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:07 PM UTC

NY_USA_Hacker wrote: post #71

sp_ wrote: post #6

German, Romanian, Vietnamese-American (1st generation immigrant), Chinese-American (1st generation immigrant), Spanish, Iranian, French, Australian, South African, Indian, British, Russian. What's that? The nationalities of the people who sit in my hallway in the computer security department of one of the biggest software companies in the United States. OK, admittedly there also four or five true red-blooded American…

Beware: I've done some of the world's best work in computer security, e.g., nicely beyond David J. Marchette, 'Computer Intrusion Detection: A Statistical Viewpoint', ISBN 0-387-95281-0, Springer-Verlag, New York, 2001. Yes, my work became peer reviewed, original research published in one of the better Elsevier journals of computer science, And I have a long background from Yorktown Heights and in DoD work. Still I d…

I must admit that I lost the thread of the argument towards the end :(

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#100

Post by pagekalisedown » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #33

There is no geek shortage. there's a shortage of people who are willing to let the FBI tap their phones, work on computers not connected to the internet, or take frequent random drug tests. Fed jobs suck.

Fed interviews suck too. Drug tests, polygraph tests (which we know is bogus science), months and months of waiting, just to be turned down.

I think Google's the only company with a worst interview process.. "Come interview for a job, which we'll offer you 5 months down the road. No, we can't tell you what you'll work on until after you've started working for us."