Live data from Hacker News

Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

asia.nikkei.com

421–430 of 661 posts

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#421

Somewhere, the collective whos who of the silicon chip world is shitting their pants. Apple just showed to the world how powerful and efficient processors can be. All that with good design. Customers are going to demand more from Intel and the likes. Just imagine Apple releasing the Mx chips for server infrastructure. Intel ought to be sweating bullets now. edit: a word.

I think you are exactly right, but we should celebrate that! This kind of competitive pressure will inspire a response from Intel and other firms. The result I would predict and hope for in a few years would be better chips from everyone in the market.

I'm not saying what you think is wrong, but your view seems like it may be narrow, and missing the bigger ecosystem.

Intel has certainly dominated consumer computer sales over the past decade, and until 4 years ago they were largely still selling the best chips for most consumer use cases (outside of mobile.) Intel had several missteps, but I don't think their dominant position was the only source of their problems, or simply that they thought they didn't have to try. They legitimately had some bad decisions and engineering problems. While the management is now changing, and that might get their engineering ducks in a row, the replacement of Intel with Apple Silicon in Apple's products is not likely to be some kind of "waking up" moment for Intel, in my opinion. Either they'll figure out their problems and somehow get back on an even keel with other chip designers and fabrication, or they won't.

Meanwhile other competitors in x86 and ARM have also have a short-term history of success and failure, again regardless of what Apple is doing. And the timelines for these plans of execution are often measured in the scale of two to three years, and I'm not seeing how Apple successfully designing CPUs would change these roadmaps for competitors.

For everyone involved, particularly those utilizing TSMC, there are benefits over time as processes improve and enable increases in performance and efficiency due to process rather than design, and the increased density will benefit any chip designers that can afford to get on newer processes.

I guess if I'd attempt to summarize, it's not clear who is motivated and able to compete against Apple in ARM design. In other words, is there a clear ARM market outside of iOS/macOS and outside of Android (where chip designers already compete)? And in the Linux/Windows consumer computing space, there's going to be a divide. Those that can accept a transition to macOS and value the incredible efficiency of Apple Silicon will do so. Those that continue buying within their previous ecosystems will continuing comparing the options they have (Intel/AMD), where currently chips are getting better. AMD has been executing very well over four years now, and Intel's latest chips are bringing solid gains in IPC and integrated GPU performance, though they still have process issues to overcome if they wish to catch back up in efficiency, and they may also need to resolve process issues to regain a foothold in HEDT. But even there, where AMD seems pretty clearly superior on most metrics, the shift in market share is slow, and momentum plus capacity give Intel a lot of runway.

The only other consideration is for Windows to transition to ARM, but there's still a bit of a chicken and egg problem there. Will an ARM chip come out with Apple Silicon like performance, despite poor x86 emulation software in Windows when run on ARM? Or will Microsoft create a Rosetta-like translation software that eases the transition? I'm not clear on what will drive either of those to happen.

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#422
post #408
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would need to think quite far out of the box and hit it to be able to beat a vertically integrated, extremely well-funded, and successful company.

There are lots of very rich companies that claim to want to compete but choose not to take the risks Apple did, of investing in their own vertical integration.

Each individual risk Apple takes is small - they didn’t develop the M1 from scratch; they have years of iPhone and iPad processor development under their belt.

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#423
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and this is now called Electron trading speed of development with 'hardware optimization'. Mac being a small market, some users are still opiniated/loud enough to reward nicer/native UI vs cross-ish platform lowest common denominator UI. Maybe there is hope Arm mac stays fast.

+ Mac OS checking every binary you run over the internet.

It's slightly more nuanced than that - you can of course just block it from doing so, and there's certainly an argument for it being updated to not need a network call each time, but phrasing it like this makes it sound worse than it actually is.

I'll just quote Jeff Johnson, who's looked into this and written about it - his comment[1] on this is post is quite useful:

https://eclecticlight.co/2020/11/25/macos-has-checked-app-si...

>The request to http://crl.apple.com/root.crl is simply checking the revocation status of Apple’s own Developer ID Certification Authority intermediate signing certificate. If you examine the cert in the System Roots keychain, you can see that URL under CRL Distribution Points. This request contains no information specific to third-party developers or apps. In contrast, there’s no CRL for third-party Developer ID leaf certs signed by Apple’s intermediate cert. Their status is only available via OCSP.

Notably, this:

>This request contains no information specific to third-party developers or apps.

https://eclecticlight.co/2020/11/25/macos-has-checked-app-si...

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#424

I really want the next MacBook Pro to support driving two 4K monitors over thunderbolt and have an option to buy 32 gigs of ram.

> have an option to buy 32 gigs of ram. I think it's quite likely that M2 will have a 128-bit lpddr5 interface. Using widely available modules, this would allow them up to 64GB ram.

I would love that! I got an M1 MacBook Air - unfortunately it was so good I found it could run the games I like perfectly well, which I hadn't planned on doing. It ran everything just fine except for Cities:Skylines. I have way to many mods and assets for 16GB of RAM to be reasonable, so it was with much reluctance I took it back on the last day of my return window. Being able to drop my Windows gaming PC and consolidate everything onto one machine will be very nice though! And I may spring for a larger size screen if I am going to have to abandon the MBA class of machine.

Returning it still hurts. I was really hoping for something that would take more than 32GB of RAM but am not surprised that it's still going to be later this year. The guts in the new iMac would be perfect for my Mom if they just offered a 27" replacement too.

Oh well. A few more months won't kill me.

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#425
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of very rich companies that claim to want to compete but choose not to take the risks Apple did, of investing in their own vertical integration.

Each individual risk Apple takes is small - they didn’t develop the M1 from scratch; they have years of iPhone and iPad processor development under their belt.

The individual risks are small now, but they weren’t when Apple was recovering from near death.

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't even need to wait for that. Right now web developers are creating the new generation of web-based apps that will consume everything that M1 can give and more. In fact these apps already existed, they were just largely ignored because they're so power-hungry (just look at electron and similar stuff).

Where is that inefficiency supposed to come from though? I mean there are four big inefficiencies that came with JS. 1. Garbage collection and minimum runtime Garbage collection decreases memory efficiency, browsers need a certain minimum amount of resources to render a page, no matter how complicated leading to 500MB RAM text editors like Atom and worse once you open files. Similar problems plague Eclipse and Intell…

I don't think "animations" fits here. Well-implemented CSS animations are generally fine (though this is in and of itself a high skill to do well, I think). If you're still driving animations with pure JS, you probably need a refresher in modern web dev.

Diffing a VDOM might fit here, but that's not really GUI-specific - just a combination of your earlier points.

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#427

Somewhere, the collective whos who of the silicon chip world is shitting their pants. Apple just showed to the world how powerful and efficient processors can be. All that with good design. Customers are going to demand more from Intel and the likes. Just imagine Apple releasing the Mx chips for server infrastructure. Intel ought to be sweating bullets now. edit: a word.

What makes you think that M1 would be better in servers than Ampere's chips or Graviton for instance? Desktop and server chips have different design goals.

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple isn't harnessing magic here. The opportunity for competition exists, but everyone else is just sitting on their asses while Apple's chip team puts in the work. If you want to beat Mx, you have to think outside the box, just like how Apple thought outside of x86. That being said, I do enjoy the shift to ARM as the dominant arch. x86 has far too many decades of cruft behind it. I don't think Apple will take over…

> The opportunity for competition exists Perhaps, but I guess it would take on the order of a decade for a competitor to build their technology including an ecosystem with customers. And who says they won't copy Apple's business practices? > but everyone else is just sitting on their asses while Apple's chip team puts in the work. That's because the complexity of the semiconductor industry is daunting. You need far m…

Sure if someone is starting from scratch. We have Microsoft, Android and Linux which are alternative computing platforms, and android + linux are already fully ARM. Apple's chips are still much faster than most Android ARM chips, but Android ARM manufacturers are not starting from zero.

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that’s not just your (conspiracy) theory, it’s exactly what happened (something i’ve also noted before). intel screwed apple years ago and apple decided to move on. it just took many years of chip development to get to this point.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if it came out that they started working (at least theoretically) on Apple Silicon when they transitioned to Intel in the first place and it just took this many years for all the pieces to be ready and lined up.

I think Apple would have been perfectly happy buying CPUs from Intel as long as Intel kept their end of the bargain up.

After the PowerPC fiasco and IBM leaving Apple high and dry, I have zero doubt that there was a contingency plan always under way before the ink even dried on the PA Semi acquisition, but it wasn't probably a concrete strategy until about the third time in a row Intel left Apple high and dry on a bed of empty promises.

Apple has so much experience with processor transitions they don't have to stay on ARM either. And they have the capital to move somewhere else if it makes enough sense to them. I find it highly unlikely - but if it made sense it would be highly probable :)

Re: Apple's follow-up to M1 chip goes into mass production for Mac

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Apple will go back to creating server infrastructure again. In the interim, I know Amazon created an ARM server chip called Graviton, and I'd like to run a kubernetes cluster on that

The latest Mac Pro does come in a rack mount option, but I'm not sure what market it's targeting.

Linus (of Linus Tech Tips) talks about the target market some in his videos about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw7Zu3LoeG8

In short, it's for media production, not computing. You put it in a media rack.

Post reply on HN