Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#31

Post by kazen44 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #21

gman83 wrote: post #17

Can someone explain to me why the knowhow that European companies like ASML have can't be used to build these foundries. Why do they need Intel or TSMC?

I would guess there's a lot more know-how necessary to building an efficient fab than just the photolithography machines.

i would assume some know-how is already there. NXP for instance.

It's a shame really that most manufacturing of western (EU, US, most ex-soviet states) has been moved to the asian markets. Bert Hubert did a good article about this and the telecom industry a while ago[0].

We see this behaviour all throughout the western world, where we shift money around "creating value" without actually producing anything of note.

0: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/how-tech-loses-out/

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#32

Post by saveduaclick » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

neximo64 wrote: post #9

As long as the principal idea behind the decision is statecraft (we need this to be onshored) vs lets make a genuinely better chip for customers it'll never work. There's a graveyard of EU decisions like this, having a non American owned AWS type company, etc, etc.

Europe is good at funding 1980s ideas, with stillborn well-connected development teams, using hard-earned tax payer money, with no results expected, just for bureaucratic self-service.

Europe is not good at promoting growth on the other hand. Living standards have fallen in the last 20 years.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#33

Post by agumonkey » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

Weird analogy. With the recent crypto trading fad, I kept seeing bubbles and crashes. And I can't help seeing part of this in industries. The system worked fine until something shook it and we realize we have to reallocate, rebalance things.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#34

Post by bserge » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

saveduaclick wrote: post #32

neximo64 wrote: post #9

As long as the principal idea behind the decision is statecraft (we need this to be onshored) vs lets make a genuinely better chip for customers it'll never work. There's a graveyard of EU decisions like this, having a non American owned AWS type company, etc, etc.

Europe is good at funding 1980s ideas, with stillborn well-connected development teams, using hard-earned tax payer money, with no results expected, just for bureaucratic self-service. Europe is not good at promoting growth on the other hand. Living standards have fallen in the last 20 years.

They haven't.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#35

Post by vagrantJin » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #23

shimonabi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop mixing Europe with the EU. EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. There is only talk of subsidizing EU chip production, because a few German car executives got worried.

>EU is a few decades old failed experiment Why do people say this with such conviction?

Probably a result of the widespread panic and pessimism that pervades European life. No idea why though. Seems like the future is a scary idea to Europe and sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop. French President Macron laments this in his book/biography "Last President of Europe"

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#36

Post by saveduaclick » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #34

saveduaclick wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is good at funding 1980s ideas, with stillborn well-connected development teams, using hard-earned tax payer money, with no results expected, just for bureaucratic self-service. Europe is not good at promoting growth on the other hand. Living standards have fallen in the last 20 years.

They haven't.

Ask spaniards or italians, I know it well. Regulation and taxes have eaten up all the economic potential.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#37

Post by chrisseaton » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #20

eastendguy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minor manufacturing like Airbus? What would be "major" manufacturing in your logic? I see the EU on the same level as the US. Do you disagree? And if so, why?

From Airbus own words: "Airbus values not only its relationship with airlines and helicopter operators in China, it also appreciates the enormous value offered by Chinese industry; components produced by Chinese companies are currently found on all production Airbus commercial jetliner types."

What point do you think you're making with that quote?

They use Chinese components... to manufacture planes... in Europe.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#38

Post by shimonabi » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #30

shimonabi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop mixing Europe with the EU. EU is a few decades old failed experiment, Europe exists for thousands of years. There is only talk of subsidizing EU chip production, because a few German car executives got worried.

Seems to work alright.

[flagged]

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#39

Post by tablespoon » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

csunbird wrote: post #25

As long as the labor costs as tenfold of a Chinese company, any attempts of this will fail.

> As long as the labor costs as tenfold of a Chinese company, any attempts of this will fail.

Why? China isn't dominating the chip-making industry, but if it were only about labor costs, they probably would. That's a hole in your theory.

Also creating conditions were things like higher labor costs prevent strategic industries from being located in your territory is a political decision, and political decisions can be changed.

Re: Europe Is Trying to Reclaim Its Lost Chipmaking Glory

#40

Post by dijit » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

lnsru wrote: post #3

Will I get lots of rotten tomatoes telling, that this is a huge waste of money? Chips production is one thing, but the whole ecosystem matters. So these chips produced in Europe must be sent back to Asia for integration in final products. Or a miracle will happen and European Union will resurrect manufacturing? I doubt, because manufacturing means missing climate goals.

We actually do have a lot of manufacturing in the EU; maybe not cheap plastic gizmos that you find at the store, but we have a relatively rich automotive industry which reaches into aerospace engineering and agriculture.