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Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

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Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#71
post #6

German, Romanian, Vietnamese-American (1st generation immigrant), Chinese-American (1st generation immigrant), Spanish, Iranian, French, Australian, South African, Indian, British, Russian. What's that? The nationalities of the people who sit in my hallway in the computer security department of one of the biggest software companies in the United States. OK, admittedly there also four or five true red-blooded American…

Beware: I've done some of the world's best work in computer security, e.g., nicely beyond

David J. Marchette, 'Computer Intrusion Detection: A Statistical Viewpoint', ISBN 0-387-95281-0, Springer-Verlag, New York, 2001.

Yes, my work became peer reviewed, original research published in one of the better Elsevier journals of computer science,

And I have a long background from Yorktown Heights and in DoD work.

Still I discovered that I was absolutely, positively, permanently unemployable in anything having anything at all to do with computing. Period. In business, on Wall Street, near DC for national security, for anything. Why? I was over 45.

So, I'm starting my own business. My target customers won't care that I'm over 45.

For a physician or lawyer, being over 45 is a great advantage -- they know more, and the target customers want the gray hairs. The knowledge is, in principal and can be in practice, e.g., my work in computer security, a big advantage. Still in computing gray hairs are worse than a felony conviction, literally.

This issue of age discrimination is a big reason you see so many immigrants in computing. Then, seeing so many immigrants, US citizens commonly sense that there's something wrong in that field and stay out.

So, why so many immigrants? Sure, it's easy, just as in, say,

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/01/darpa-us-geek-shorta...

where the drum beat (as recently from Mayor Bloomberg, on AVC.com, in some banker before a committee of Congress, etc.) is for a big 'shortage'. The same was true during The Great Depression: Growers in California circulated posters in the rest of the country claiming a big 'shortage' of farm workers in California. The sheep came and got fleeced.

Then, with the drum beat for 'shortage', as you notice, the drum beat will be for more immigration to meet the shortage.

This got started when the NSF decided to flood computing with immigrants and did this by writing into university research grant contracts that so many students had to be supported. Then the H1-B situation came along and filled whole departments with immigrants and, often, implicit signs "No US citizens need apply".

Computing? The US Federal government 'targets' the field and tries hard to manipulate the supply and demand. So, well informed US citizens stay the hell out.

For my business, what the US Federal government is doing to computing does not hurt. Actually I will have opportunities to exploit immigrants but will refuse to do so. Instead, I can hire some gray hairs! Okay by me!

But generally, young US citizens should stay the hell out of computing unless they can see their way clear to owning their own, successful business with a wide, deep "moat" (see Buffett).

The only way to be sure gumment doesn't make a mess out of our economy is to be sure our gumment stays out of our economy. E.g., The Great Recession, started by what some selected members of Congress told Fannie and Freddy -- back any junk paper. So, bubble, crash, wipe out the ability of the US banks to play their role in the US economy, bring on The Great Recession, and run up the national debt by a few trillion dollars. Yup, gumment in action again.

Computing and gumment? Drive US citizens out of computing.

Semi-, pseudo-, quasi-great: Computing is an 'essential' field especially for US national security, so drive out US citizens. Yup, gumment's best again!

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demanding equitable compensation falls under the rubric of "smart." If you're willing to work for pay below market value, you're not smart, therefore don't meet the "smart and passionate" condition.

If we follow that reasoning, all early-stage startups are screwed since they don't have any smart people working for them!

Nah, they're working for so little with the promise of big dividends down the road.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#73
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with being international? My parents were once international geeks -- their company sponsored their green card and they've been living in the States for over 50 years. They both received their PhD's from US universities and work in research firms. They consider themselves more American than any other "true" red blooded American even though they weren't born here. I think the real problem is our immigrati…

It's not that there's anything wrong with internationals, but rather that when a team of 12 has 11 internationals you know that our country is having issues sustaining it's own tech sector. We may not always be able to ship in brilliant minds from Moscow and Berlin and Bombay to save our butts.

It's simple. We're not short of "brilliant minds", not at all. Instead, the employers want to have a shortage of a simple word, a common, single, two syllable word, MONEY. It's not about brilliant minds but about money, just the money.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#74

I think that part of the problem is in how geeks are trained and what they work on. For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. Most end users of said software don't like it and have zero appreciation for the people who made it. Outside of Silicon Valley being a geek isn't…

A quibble: Silicon Valley isn't the only place where being a geek is cool, the Northwest is a perfect example (especially Portland and Seattle).

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#75
post #16

One of the things that made the US so strong in the last century was the influx of great scientists from Europe during the world wars. I know many brilliant people from other countries today who would love to become US citizens but in some cases it is difficult for them to even secure visas. Our academic culture might still be preferable to that in many other countries but if we continue to let it decay this won't be…

Our academic system, especially in the research universities, is just fine. Nearly all the world's best research universities are in the US. Why? After WWII the US War Department concluded that math, science, and engineering were crucial for US national security, Since then Congress, via the NSF and NIH, fund the research universities well enough to make them lead the world. There's no problem with our research universities.

The supply of labor for software is a very different issue.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#76

If you go into computer science, you will: * Work with a lot of socially underdeveloped people. Hey, they spend their time fighting compilers, not reaching consensus. Soft skills are largely irrelevant. * Probably work in one of a very few technology hubs around the world. This is all the more painful when you realize how little interaction you actually need with your team, and you could be doing your job from a shac…

Social interactions are trivial compared to computer science. Truly smart people have no difficulty talking to others, because their knowledge propelled them to understand how little sense it makes to be impolite in face of all that is to know. I would wager that it's others who have difficulty talking to us programmers in a clear, calm and efficient way, not the other way around.

If you care about how others perceive your job, then you have underlying character problems that should be solved by measures other than acquiring an illustrious job.

Almost everyone spends their life in front of a computer nowadays, and this percentage is only going to grow.

If I may presume as much: We are in computer science / engineering because we want to stop having to deal with bullshit. Every fabric of life seems to be pervaded with it. Have you actually talked to graduates from other courses? They retain little to nothing of what they learnt. Their knowledge is useless trivia. Doctors know nothing of how their medications actually work.They are glorified nurses.Lawyers deal with abstract, hilariously overcomplicated laws and loopholes. Computer science is about the last bastion of sanity in this world.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#77
Franky, I don't believe there is a shortage of engineers.

A true shortage in the market (relative to demand) is accompanied by a rise in salaries. In certain niche markets we are seeing that [google's big raises, etc] but I don't believe that market has much in common with the market that DARPA cares about i.e. making new and better ways to kill people defend the country.

Are the DeathTech and Skynets of the world start offering much higher salaries during this "shortage"?

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#78
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I read "smart & passionate," I see "smart & willing to work for less."

Demanding equitable compensation falls under the rubric of "smart." If you're willing to work for pay below market value, you're not smart, therefore don't meet the "smart and passionate" condition.

That assumes that the market price is the same (as it would be with e.g. milk).

In this case, part of the salary is your working environment which would be significantly better in a start up.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#79
post #5

I suggest working to deprecate the glorification of sports stars, actors, rock musicians, and other careers that don't contribute to the advancement of humanity. Demonstrate the wonders of STEM fields, and do so in a non-hokey manner (I've seen the government ads and the ACM ads, they are terrible). Instead of bubble-heads on the evening news, work to have thoughtful people providing the voice of the country. Work to…

"I suggest working to deprecate the glorification of sports stars, actors, rock musicians, and other careers that don't contribute to the advancement of humanity." Programming and computer science are important, but there's no need to belittle other professions. All the careers you listed require skill and dedication and contribute to the advancement of humanity in their own ways. I agree it's always good to raise th…

I enjoy listing to music, as do plenty of other people but I enjoy the fact that I am alive more than that.

I am alive because of a few really good doctors, but even the best doctors don't have groupies, etc.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#80
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers and scientists provide better water and better food. Actors and musicians do neither. I consider that pretty valuable. That said, it's a question of balance. And it's also a question of not accepting all things as of equal value, which is required for progress.

I am reminded of an old Billy Joel interview: "It's kind of weird--the values. Jonas Salk invented the polio vaccine. I'm probably worth a lot more than Jonas Salk. That's pretty weird. I didn't cure polio; this guy did. I walk into a bar and a whole bunch of people know who I am. Jonas Salk probably can't even get laid. Now, figure that out." http://www.piano-man.de/archiv/detail.asp?ID=93&Artikel_...

I agree with the general idea, but the only reason Salk isn't rich is that he refused to patent the vaccine.

And for years the captain of the airplanes he was on would announce this to the passengers. He was offered (but turned down) a ticker tape parade, his name has been added to shop windows, when the announcement was made the entire country pretty much stopped just so they could listen to the radio broadcast.

And yes, he could get laid pretty much anytime he wished (though he seems to have preferred to stay with his wife).

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