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Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

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Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond, honestly. I don't feel like I'm investing into a place I'm renting; I feel like I'm investing into my home, and by extension, myself. Every time I walk outside, I feel like I've accomplished something, even if it's a relatively small thing. No matter how anything else is going in my life, that feeling is still there. If the owners decided to boot us out this month and sell the place…

If you are happy, who am I to argue with that. Maybe you just really like your landlord. "living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their commun…

I'm seriously amused by your last paragraph. It actually made me smile, because, despite explaining precisely why I'm doing this kind of stuff, you're still looking for the "angle", and that's the best example of why I find this attitude so difficult to communicate in an effective way to so many other people (and why I've all but given up at it).

Yes, I am now living in a place with lower rent than I might be otherwise, but the rent is not lower than the total amount of money and time I have put into it; yes, the landlords might write an amazing letter of recommendation, but my experience so far has been that it's nearly impossible to wrest any kind of letter out of a landlord, no matter how good your relationship.

As far as capitalism goes ... y'know, I don't dislike it, but I don't think it's an answer to everyone's needs, either. In order to work, capitalism requires that everything have a measurable, monetary value, and that most people agree on that value. Talk about the Mona Lisa to a capitalist, and the capitalist will tell you that whatever is spent on insuring and protecting the Mona Lisa is representative of its value; talk about the Mona Lisa to an art expert, and they'll use a term that is utterly foreign to a capitalist: "priceless".

If people had money to spend at capitalist parks, and capitalist parks realized that they could rent space to vendors (and make some money too), then capitalist vendors would move in and compete for the same spaces, and discerning customers would visit the best vendors, and everyone would be happy! ...except, the story doesn't end there, because eventually the capitalist park realizes that it has developed more value in its space by drawing people to a park where there's great food, so they raise the fees on the vendors, and the vendors realize that they can make more money by advertising more aggressively, or, better yet, by opening up side-businesses and operating those in the same park also ... eventually, this system corrupts itself and the park is no longer a park or the people can no longer afford to go there or any of a number of outcomes. For real world examples, look no further than the article that spawned this whole thread, or the huge number of empty commercial spaces that are still asking for ridiculous rents.

So, I am skeptical of capitalism's ability to be anything more than a better economic model than anything else that's currently viable.

And, the house does belong to the community, in a way, because it's a part of it, and it belongs to me, in a way, because I live in it.

I think when I said "value", I was thinking of something different than what you were when you read it.

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#62

Random off-topic response to one of your throwaway comments: "Buying a car or a house in cash is showoff-y" When did buying a car in cash become showoff-y? My parents and grandparents always paid cash for their cars, because it's a depreciating asset and taking out a loan for it is just throwing money away. I didn't buy a car until I could afford it in cash - and when I did, that's when I realized this wasn't terribl…

I think buying a car on credit may be an American thing - at least I don't know of anyone who has bought a car on credit. It seems like an absurd waste of money to do so - why not just buy a secondhand car you can afford outright?

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#63
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, when I saw Paul's post, the first thing I thought was that it would encourage every landlord of a place that a lot of very rich people love to triple the rent and force a rich person to buy it at a favorable price.

investing in restaurants is a great way for a rich guy to become a poor guy. One case of food poisoning and you'll be dealing with lawsuits that will force you under. plus it's not scalable, so it's difficult to make a lot of money, unless the food is so good or unique that you can franchise it. But I'm guessing the appeal of Elan has more to do with the atmosphere than the menu... Anyway, it doesn't matter, the reas…

Business leasing is usually longer-term (often 10 years) and any rent increases are negotiated. The fun starts when the lease is up for renewal:

- Landlords can refuse to renew it. I know of cases where the landlord changes and the new landlord decides not to continue the lease. When the business owners leave, the landlord restarts the same business in that location - hires his cousins to run shop. Often the businesses, despite being profitable (a lot of small businesses are just ramen-profitable) can not afford to move out so they leave everything behind.

- Landlord wants a lot more rent to reflect market conditions. This increases fixed costs, which make the business harder to run, and much more unattractive to potential buyers.

Most landlords want the businesses who rent from them to succeed and try to be reasonable with their demands because they prefer to have a stable cash-flow from their investments.

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#64
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond, honestly. I don't feel like I'm investing into a place I'm renting; I feel like I'm investing into my home, and by extension, myself. Every time I walk outside, I feel like I've accomplished something, even if it's a relatively small thing. No matter how anything else is going in my life, that feeling is still there. If the owners decided to boot us out this month and sell the place…

If you are happy, who am I to argue with that. Maybe you just really like your landlord. "living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their commun…

I want to finish this conversation with just one point, which I'll try to make as clearly as possible. I started this thread with a post that included the question, "Why don't more poor people clean up their neighborhoods?"

I was being rhetorical, but your comments here are a fine example of one of the reasons why they don't: lack of a sense of ownership.

Let's set aside for a moment all of the other factors into why poor neighborhoods tend to be run-down and crime-ridden -- lack of resources, hunger, hopelessness, crime, drugs -- and imagine a neighborhood filled with perfectly rational poor people.

We'll take Bob as an example. Bob rents a house for slightly less than he can afford from a landlord that, for whatever reason, is not interested in fixing the place up and demanding a higher rent. Maybe it's because the landlord also doesn't have the funds; maybe it's because all the other places in the neighborhood are run down too, so the landlord could never realize as much value from improvements.

In Bob's neighborhood, none of the houses are freshly painted, because it's in nobody's best personal interest to do it, because they don't own the places. None of the yards are weeded or landscaped, the plumbing leaks, and the wiring is hazardous. Bob commits as little of his own resources to his house, because it doesn't belong to him.

Eventually, the neighborhood becomes the victim of its own disrepair, and is no longer worth investing any money in at all. Bob, being perfectly rational, simply moves into a similar situation at another neighborhood.

A wealthy investor shows up, purchases the homes for the rather low amounts that they command, from landlords happy to be rid of them and getting anything at all for them, and kicks out the tenants who simply move into other neighborhoods and repeat the pattern. The investor razes the miserable houses to the ground, which is probably the right thing to do at that point, and builds whatever their market research firm tells them is most valuable there -- a shopping center, parking, condominiums.

This, indeed, is a cycle that is being played out every day all over the U.S.; I've personally seen it in more places than I could easily recall.

But, I question that system. I think, if Bob weren't a rational actor, if instead he moved into a community and decided to behave as though it belonged to him as much as anyone else there, and subsequently started fixing little things here and there -- and then his neighbors did the same, because they didn't want to suddenly have the worst place on the block, and so on -- then, perhaps, poor people could discover that they can afford to live in nice neighborhoods after all.

G'night.

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#65
post #30

I can't afford to. If I could afford to, I would have quietly done it. But real estate in Palo Alto is very expensive, and most of YC's investments are still illiquid. (Not that I have 5-8% in any case. We assume we get diluted down to 2% by exit, and I am one of several partners in YC.)

Of course if you get to the point of investing in 200-300 companies per year, and lots of them do well, prices of PA real estate will get even more expensive.

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what would you think about a startup that aims to protect the 401k investments of Joe Trader? Is that something that would really improve peoples' lives?

Why not an investment company that invested in startups and small businesses by pooling the resources of Joe Traders? I would assume that, since much of the smart money right now seems to be in startups, the return can't be all that bad, and you'd have a shot at leveraging three different groups in such a way as to improve all their lives, which would be a neat trick all on its own.

Many companies provide matching funds for retirement accounts, but don't allow you much say in where you invest. You can be given a basket of stocks and told to pick, or told which fund managers you're allowed to use.

That aside, individual investors usually like their current funds and are loathe to leave them just for something that promises better results.

--

What I envision is a site that simplifies the current technical and quantitative trading tools into something usable by the common trader.

That way if your company says pick from stocks A to Z to invest in June, you can decide which stock to pick. For example, don't pick A because seasonal trends dictate they always fall 8% in June. Or don't pick B because it is overbought because it is nearly touching a resistance band and has only broken resistance once in the past 5 years.

My examples are from technical analysis, but quantitative techniques work just as well.

The tools available are good, but require a lot of theoretical knowledge before use.

For a common investor, using a algorithmic tool with fewer options, sensible defaults, and automatically applied backtesting would be a huge step upwards from listening to Fast Money or the musings of their coworkers.

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#67

Random off-topic response to one of your throwaway comments: "Buying a car or a house in cash is showoff-y" When did buying a car in cash become showoff-y? My parents and grandparents always paid cash for their cars, because it's a depreciating asset and taking out a loan for it is just throwing money away. I didn't buy a car until I could afford it in cash - and when I did, that's when I realized this wasn't terribl…

Well, does 'cash' mean physical cash or does it mean 'not on credit'? You're assuming the latter, but that doesn't make any sense, because buying on credit is effectively buying for more 'cash', just spread over some time (taking net values of later amounts into account of course). So I assume it means the former.

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#68
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are happy, who am I to argue with that. Maybe you just really like your landlord. "living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their commun…

I want to finish this conversation with just one point, which I'll try to make as clearly as possible. I started this thread with a post that included the question, "Why don't more poor people clean up their neighborhoods?" I was being rhetorical, but your comments here are a fine example of one of the reasons why they don't: lack of a sense of ownership. Let's set aside for a moment all of the other factors into why…

I hope it is clear that I don't mean to attack you, I am just trying to understand.

We seem to agree that sense of ownership is the problem - and to me it is real, as those poor people really don't own the place they live in.

You are right that there could be a problem with people staying poor indefinitely and things only getting worse over time.

On the other hand, maybe the problem isn't "how can poor people live in nice places" but "how can poor people be less poor"? For example, apparently the poor people in your story seem to be good at renovating houses. Why shouldn't they be paid for it and hence become less poor (equivalently, be allowed to live in a nice house with lower rent in exchange for renovating said house). It seems it would cost the landlords nothing to give them a job, it is a win win situation.

I do think, or rather fear, that capitalism (or any real world instance of it) has some loopholes which might lead to the whole system collapsing, that is, everything belonging to just a few and the rest being poor. I am not sure that scenario is really happening (I just don't know), but there seem to be some signs of it.

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#69
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are happy, who am I to argue with that. Maybe you just really like your landlord. "living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their commun…

I'm seriously amused by your last paragraph. It actually made me smile, because, despite explaining precisely why I'm doing this kind of stuff, you're still looking for the "angle", and that's the best example of why I find this attitude so difficult to communicate in an effective way to so many other people (and why I've all but given up at it). Yes, I am now living in a place with lower rent than I might be otherwi…

"In order to work, capitalism requires that everything have a measurable, monetary value, and that most people agree on that value."

It is the job of the market to determine the value. Corruption of capitalist parks might be a problem, although I did not say the park has to be owned by a company - just the people living around it need to own their houses.

Presumably the cafe in question here will be replaced by something even more worthwhile. Who would be willing to pay the higher rent, if they can not put it to good use?

Re: Why don't rich people do more awesome things?

#70

Random off-topic response to one of your throwaway comments: "Buying a car or a house in cash is showoff-y" When did buying a car in cash become showoff-y? My parents and grandparents always paid cash for their cars, because it's a depreciating asset and taking out a loan for it is just throwing money away. I didn't buy a car until I could afford it in cash - and when I did, that's when I realized this wasn't terribl…

That's when you take out the loan, get all the discounts, and pay it off the next month!
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