TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court • Hacker News Board

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#141

Post by mikeryan » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 4:19 AM UTC

maratd wrote: post #105

Canada wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is in fact a blanket protection against having to give testimony.

Providing a password is not testimony. You're not testifying to anything.

My understanding is that whether or not providing a password is or is not testimony is not clearly defined.

There have in fact been a few instances where judges have determined that providing a password does constitute giving testimony.

http://www.easterndistrictblog.com/?p=57

and older

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/crypto/archive/2007/12/18/c...

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#142

Post by ajays » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 4:32 AM UTC

Contempt of Court is a serious business. You can be jailed indefinitely for it. For example: this guy was jailed for 14 years because he couldn't (or wouldn't) turn over information about missing assets during his divorce: http://www.judicialaccountability.org/articles/7year.htm

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#143

Post by blendergasket » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 4:48 AM UTC

lukejduncan wrote: post #51

mirror?

It's on the wall next to the shower.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#144

Post by evgen » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:01 AM UTC

megaman821 wrote: post #117

runningdogx wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if your passphrase to your truecrypt container (let's say it contains, for the purpose of this thought experiment, child pornography) is the true statement: "I am [for this thought experiment] a child pornography collector." Wouldn't it be a violation of the 5th amendment to be compelled to provide that passphrase, because it is an admission against interest and therefore would be admissible if you disclosed it?…

What if you pass phrase was "I have child porn on my hard-drive", then could you plead the fifth?

You could try. The judge could also demand that you provide your lawyer with the pass phrase and that the lawyer then enter that pass phrase when required to by the digital forensics team in such a way that does not reveal the password to the forensics team. The judge also has the authority to strike things from the record and could simple demand that you provide the pass phrase and that any mention of the actual pass phrase not be used in court and that any such usage will not be a part of the trial records. Either way, the 5th is a weak shield to try to hide behind in this case.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#145

Post by baisdl » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:18 AM UTC

ThaddeusQuay wrote: post #104

This may be a hoax. There are only two occurrences of his name on PACER, and both are discharged bankruptcy cases. Also, the federal inmate locator ( http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/LocateInmate.jsp ) shows no one by that name.

Why would a guy facing federal charges be locked up in county jail?

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#146

Post by yaix » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:22 AM UTC

sorbus wrote: post #129

AretNCarlsen wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be perjury, though. You are now a Lying Guy, not just a Fifth Amendment Guy, and no amendment will be able to save you if they figure out that you gave a hidden volume password and claimed it as the "real" and only password. I'm not saying plausible deniability is bad, just that it would be better not to rely on technical arms races to protect fundamental rights. The Passive Aggressive Award will go to the…

You generally give them the non-hidden volume password, not the hidden volume password. This is because, unless you tell them so (or they see you using it, or have spyware on your system, etc.), there is absolutely no way to prove the existence of a hidden volume from looking at the file. There's also no way to prove that a truecrypt file does not contain a hidden volume, which leads to some interesting problems if p…

Actually, there are ways to prove a hidden volume indirectly. For example by the file names you opened or the last modification date of a truecrypt container file. There is an article about all the small things to watch on the Truecrypt website.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#147

Post by itswindy » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:23 AM UTC

maratd wrote: post #105

Canada wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is in fact a blanket protection against having to give testimony.

Providing a password is not testimony. You're not testifying to anything.

"Providing a password is not testimony. You're not testifying to anything."

Where did you put your ex-wife's body Mr Johnson, we know you killed her? Just point at the map, you do not even have to say anything.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#148

Post by cantbecool » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:48 AM UTC

dunmalg wrote: post #138

"I changed the password every 3 days and never memorized it. Current password was on a post-it on my monitor. Did you guys lose the post-it?" Simple as that, right? They can't compel you to remember information you never had in memory. It's probably too late, as he's likely admitted to remembering the password. Dumb move.

They will probably request a lie detector test to be taken; ultimately, he will probably fail it. Great idea though.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#149

Post by otterley » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:54 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #83

pilom wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good summary, the only difference between this and the house key example is that you can "forget" the password. When you "forget" there is nothing they can do besides say you are unstable and hold you in contempt of court.

True, and shredding a key would be no different than shredding evidence. You could be charged with destroying evidence but not the crime the evidence supported.

Under civil law, a finding that evidence was destroyed implies a finding of the fact that the destroyed evidence would have supported. I'm not sure how this would affect a criminal law proceeding, though I'm reasonably the prosecutor would be allowed to introduce that fact to prove guilt. (Ultimately it would be up to the jury to decide.)

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#150

Post by cookiecaper » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:53 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #79

First, there isn't enough information to know what it is this person has (or has not) done. Secondly, the fifth amendment of the US Constitution allows you to refuse to provide testimony which you feel may incriminate you. Generally encryption pass phrases do not count as testimony, the legal system treats them as keys. And that would be covered under the fourth amendment which says the government cannot compel to yo…

Assume a case like TrueCrypt's hidden volumes, where multiple keys decrypt different content. Could you use the key to decrypt the fake content, and then when asked if that key was the "real key", refuse to answer on Fifth Amendment grounds?