Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo • Hacker News Board

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#21

Post by derleth » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:33 AM UTC

omarchowdhury wrote: post #14

baconface wrote: post #10

Regardless of how effective drugs like LSD and psilocybin are, they make it difficult to maintain traditional societal hierarchies of power and control and thus will be stamped out.

I think what OP is saying is that if every single person in a given society was to take psilocybin/LSD (or psychedelics in general) then that society would not look like society as it does 'traditionally'. The other posters to this comment thread ask how "hallucinating" would do this, but they need to realize that it is not visions or hallucinations that is the variable of change during episodes of influence under th…

Where is your evidence for any of that?

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#22

Post by derleth » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:35 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #16

derleth wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they make it difficult to maintain traditional societal hierarchies of power How? How does making you see things that aren't real challenge any hierarchies?

"How does making you see things that aren't real challenge any hierarchies?" While LSD and psilocybin do sometimes cause people to hallucinate, this is only one small part of the psychedelic experience. The real value is in how the drugs change your thinking. It would take an entire book to explain this, but here are a few YouTube videos to give you the basic idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8an2XZ3MU http://ww…

All you talk about are emotional boosts, which you can also get from cocaine and amphetamines. Do you recommend those drugs as well?

(As an aside, I don't take YouTube very seriously on the whole unless I happen to know the specific person who made and uploaded the videos.)

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#23

Post by maaku » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:42 AM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #6

hsmyers wrote: post #4

I have never understood the mechanics of 'drug is bad if use equal entertainment'. It will be interesting to see if the release of this information and the refereed to thaw in the taboo will lead anywhere...

Aren't most recreational drugs addictive and destructive? It's not too hard to understand why there's a stigma.

Primarily just those which result in dopamine production are addictive. Psychedelic drugs do not, and are generally not addictive.

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#24

Post by sliverstorm » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:44 AM UTC

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #15

sliverstorm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen anyone asserting the abuse potential has vanished (or never existed). They are simply acknowledging there are legitimate uses.

You must have missed the last several drug related posts here on HN. Full of research on that very topic. And yes, the abuse potential is much lower than the government would have you believe.

Yes, I must have. I certainly don't remember any along that particular topic.

I'd be interested to see them if you still have links.

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#25

Post by Daishiman » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 7:22 AM UTC

derleth wrote: post #22

Alex3917 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How does making you see things that aren't real challenge any hierarchies?" While LSD and psilocybin do sometimes cause people to hallucinate, this is only one small part of the psychedelic experience. The real value is in how the drugs change your thinking. It would take an entire book to explain this, but here are a few YouTube videos to give you the basic idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8an2XZ3MU http://ww…

All you talk about are emotional boosts, which you can also get from cocaine and amphetamines. Do you recommend those drugs as well? (As an aside, I don't take YouTube very seriously on the whole unless I happen to know the specific person who made and uploaded the videos.)

You have evidently never taken psychedelics.

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#26

Post by zoul » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 7:36 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #16

derleth wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they make it difficult to maintain traditional societal hierarchies of power How? How does making you see things that aren't real challenge any hierarchies?

"How does making you see things that aren't real challenge any hierarchies?" While LSD and psilocybin do sometimes cause people to hallucinate, this is only one small part of the psychedelic experience. The real value is in how the drugs change your thinking. It would take an entire book to explain this, but here are a few YouTube videos to give you the basic idea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c8an2XZ3MU http://ww…

Agreed. Going on a hallucinogenic trip is a life-changing experience that does not favour rigid structures in your mind nor the society. It's an experience so far out of the common framework of language and rational thinking that it's hard to exactly pinpoint what changes inside of you, but for me one of the biggest eye-openers was seeing myself from an outer perspective, seeing all the little selfish thinking that drives me most of the time. And appreciating the unique experience of life not filtered by my rational and rigid self for a few moments. This experience does not favour the traditonal society where a lot of people would love you being reduced to a part of the machine, for various selfish and misguided reasons.

It should be said that a trip can also be the worst experience of your life; you can live through the biggest fears you could not imagine that even existed. I have been tripping about five times in my life and most of the trips were of mixed nature. I have felt the supreme beauty and I have felt the supreme fear. In retrospective both are worth it.

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#27

Post by orborde » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 7:49 AM UTC

derleth wrote: post #21

omarchowdhury wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what OP is saying is that if every single person in a given society was to take psilocybin/LSD (or psychedelics in general) then that society would not look like society as it does 'traditionally'. The other posters to this comment thread ask how "hallucinating" would do this, but they need to realize that it is not visions or hallucinations that is the variable of change during episodes of influence under th…

Where is your evidence for any of that?

Ask the grandparent, not the parent. Parent is simply trying to explain what the grandparent was saying.

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#28

Post by profquail » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 8:03 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #3

"Psilocybin has shown promise in [...] relieving cluster headaches (a common form of chronic headache) and in alleviating the anxiety experienced by terminally ill cancer patients." Cluster headaches are absolutely not a common form of chronic headache. They are fairly rare, affecting .1% of the population, and are extremely debilitating; many sufferers commit suicide rather than suffer through the pain. Here is an a…

I think you misinterpreted the sentence you quoted -- cluster headaches can be a common form of chronic headache, whilst being rare in the general population. That is, people suffering from chronic headaches are rare in the general population but those who are, are likely suffering from cluster headaches.

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#29

Post by bermanoid » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 8:29 AM UTC

r22 wrote: post #18

DMT, which is a natural substance similar to serotonin (and also in the human body), is one of the most profound spiritual experiences one can have. It is not like any other drug. It is like opening a door to another dimension. Here's a great documentary on it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc9e7PXsXDE

DMT, which is a natural substance similar to serotonin (and also in the human body)

What does the similarity to serotonin have to say in favor of the drug?

If you want to boost your serotonin levels, it's trivial to do so directly by taking 5-HTP, St. John's Wort, or tryptophan supplements, all of which you can get at your local pharmacy without a prescription.

And be cautious: excess serotonin in the human body is thought to be bad for heart health, which is why supplements like 5-HTP are sometimes prescribed with Carbidopa to slow the 5-HTP -> serotonin transition outside of the brain (Carbidopa doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so 5-HTP -> serotonin is unchecked within the brain, whereas it's slowed outside of it), so not as much serotonin ends up in your bloodstream. I have no idea if DMT has similar heart-unfriendly properties to serotonin, but the point is, saying that it's similar chemically and that the substance exists in our body doesn't necessarily mean it's a great thing to take. Our bodies are careful balances of thousands of different chemicals, and some of them are only there in trace amounts, it can absolutely be dangerous to throw the balance out of whack (though if I had to guess, in DMT's case a couple doses is probably not such a problem).

I'm not necessarily knocking recreational drugs: I've dabbled and enjoyed, but chemical similarity is not a good enough reason to assume that something is either safe, effective, or in any way good for you - there are many compounds that are extremely close to things that we find in our bodies that are very dangerous.

...which is exactly why we need more legitimate studies on these things, IMO. I'm glad that the tide is starting to shift on this, we should know a lot more about the potential benefits and risks of all the substances that people ingest, whether they typically ingest them for fun, or for health.

Re: Research into hallucinogenic drugs begins to shake off decades of taboo

#30

Post by pygy_ » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 8:41 AM UTC

profquail wrote: post #28

Alex3917 wrote: post #3

"Psilocybin has shown promise in [...] relieving cluster headaches (a common form of chronic headache) and in alleviating the anxiety experienced by terminally ill cancer patients." Cluster headaches are absolutely not a common form of chronic headache. They are fairly rare, affecting .1% of the population, and are extremely debilitating; many sufferers commit suicide rather than suffer through the pain. Here is an a…

I think you misinterpreted the sentence you quoted -- cluster headaches can be a common form of chronic headache, whilst being rare in the general population. That is, people suffering from chronic headaches are rare in the general population but those who are, are likely suffering from cluster headaches.

Some facts about headaches:

Migraine has a prevalence between 10 and 20%.

The chronology of migraine and cluster headache differs, but they are both chronic issues.

Untreated migraine attacks last several hours and recur ususally at least once per month. ~10% of Migraine sufferer end up abusing pain killers, which increases the attack frequency and leaves them with a permanent, milder background headache.

Cluster attacks last between 15 and 180 minutes (usually less than 1 hour) and recur several times per day during several weeks, then remit, only to replase later on (often at the same period of the week). Hence the name "cluster".

Around 1/1000 cluster patients have "untractable chronic cluster headache", ie daily attacks without interruptions, that resist to medical treatment. (I don't remember the prevalence of drug-sensitive chronic CH).