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Why Governments Fail

persuasion.community

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Re: Why Governments Fail

#91

Post by salawat »

User23 wrote: post #83
naravara wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a sobering realization that none of our elected legislators are competent to actually write laws. Occasionally you’ll see an example where they’ll have a staff attorney draft something for the purpose of political grandstanding, but that’s a sideshow compared to the amount of legislation written by the people with the real power. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't. Their staff offices don't have the payroll…

That’s more strong evidence that the system really doesn’t work as advertised. If it did then the people that supposedly have the power of the purse and control trillions of dollars in spending might vote themselves enough budget to do their jobs.

They certainly voted themselves out of the legislative work of actually understanding technology.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Technology_Assessm...

Re: Why Governments Fail

#92

Post by ls612 »

fabbari wrote: post #52

Something about the statement 'So inequality is not the problem, poverty is the problem' is wrong. I can't quite put my finger on it -- it sounds along the lines of 'So falling from the 20th floor is not the problem, hitting the sidewalk is the problem'. Can someone explain me to myself?

You implicitly (and are not alone in this) place negative value on the “wrong people” or even on other people in general having more, even if you are no worse off. It stems from the human brain being very perceptive of hierarchy and wanting to move up the totem pole by any means necessary.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#93

Post by slibhb »

yosito wrote: post #82
slibhb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that "religions, cults, and political tribes" that enforce uniform behavior are by definition restricting freedom. Which is not to say that freedom is never worth restricting. My general point was that I prefer American notions of freedom to East Asian notions of freedom.

Plato's famous works were about this. One of his ideas was to create the perfect state in which good behavior didn't have to be enforced by laws, by instilling people with an internal sense of morality that they willingly want to follow. Early Judeo-Christian societies were built around this idea. If people are doing what they want to do, and that aligns with what society needs them to do, then their freedom doesn't…

Yes, The Republic, and Plato's last dialogue is called Laws and it describes a state governed by laws. Judeo-Christian societies were and are based on deontology i.e. the ten commandments.

What you're talking about is the harmonization of all interests around a single ideal, something that never ends well (including Plato's attempt in Syracuse). It's been criticized to death by liberal philosophers, in my opinion rightly.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#94

Post by slibhb »

mcculley wrote: post #88
slibhb wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm arguing for a distinction between being wrong and failure . I don't see anything from you (or the other poster) besides rhetoric. Apparently we should have "just known" that this virus was going to be a disaster. And evidence of this was "I knew" or "other countries knew". Great, and half of HN "knows" there is imminent hyperinflation. It may be fair to describe the lack of available tests a failure. All the PCR…

"post-hoc silliness"? In March, we had seen what had happened in China and Italy already. We were watching how other countries were investing. We chose not to invest. When a government fails to do something about an entirely predictable outcome, that is not just an error, it is also a failure. You have a really surprising way to view things: All governments can be excused for inaction or even the wrong action with th…

Not excused but forgiven.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#96

Post by the_benno »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #18
petermcneeley wrote: post #2

I appreciate the honesty when it comes to the naming of this group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasion

Here's the rationale[0] for the naming of the group: >“Persuasion” stands for: >1) A commitment to a free society in which everyone gets to pursue a dignified life. >2) A belief in the social practice of persuasion, which necessitates free speech. >3) A determination to persuade, not to mock or troll, those who disagree with us. In my view, they are succeeding admirably in meeting these 3 goals. [0] https://twitter.c…

Personally, I'm a little less convinced of the 1st bullet point.

In particular, I see many obstacles to a "free society in which everyone gets to pursue a dignified life": healthcare costs, ongoing climate disaster, erosion of labor rights, rising nativism and authoritarianism on the far-right, etc. chief among them. To be as monomaniacally focused on "cancel culture" as Mounk (and many others on the center/right of the American political spectrum) strikes me as misguided at best and disingenuously self-serving at worst.

Persuasion seems to me a massive over-reaction to the minor injustice that is "cancel culture" wrapped in some self-important and grandiose rhetoric.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#97

Post by billytetrud »

anikan_vader wrote: post #84
billytetrud wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wealth inequality arises from capital concentration No. Wealth inequality is capital concentration. What you're saying is that rain causes rain. In actuality what causes wealth inequality is corruption. The financial sector has been extracting wealth from the people since the 70s. That's what causes wealth inequality.

> What you're saying is that rain causes rain. It's a little ironic to use that as an example, because rain actually does cause rain. Falling water droplets induce a down draft which causes other water droplets to fall out of the sky as well. This is why water precipitates rather suddenly rather than as a constant gradual drip.

Well, that's interesting to know. I still wouldn't say rain causes rain. Rain may be self-reinforcing, but there is generally some other far more significant catalyst. Regardless, I hope you got my point.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#98

Post by billytetrud »

pietrrrek wrote: post #85
billytetrud wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only a problem for hype-based ad funded news. Our news is so bad today because it's ad funded, instead of subscription based. With a subscription, you read a source you trust and that source has an incentive to keep you trusting it by giving you interesting information. By contrast, ad based news gets most of it's revenue from vitality, shares, and clicks. They create hyperbolic headlines aimed to create an e…

One could argue that subscription based news orgs are incentivesed to provide you news which would ensure that you stay subscribed. For some people these news would have to be factual, but, for IMO most people news which are either not fully factual, or omit some information would be "preferred" as long as they (the news) conform to the opinion of the subscriber.

People have their biases, and people like to be validated. I agree. I just don't believe that people satisfying their biases would have much of a market in primarily subscriber-oriented news. Even todays subscription news is driven by clicks and shares in a misguided effort to compete with free news.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#99

Post by tacocataco »

gonehome wrote: post #22
naravara wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the actual mechanism by which political corruption works. Lobbying is merely any person going in to press their interests with their representatives. Where large, monied interests rig the game is because they run election campaigns and implant narratives in the media. In other words, the mechanism by which lobbyists get their way is by weaponizing regular citizens into voting in their interests. It's mark…

Yeah - I basically agree with this framing. I think Lessig's talk is the best summary of this: https://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_... Lobbying itself is fine - we want experts with deep domain expertise interacting with law makers. We just don't want them also funding their campaigns.

I must have watched a different ted talk he did on the same subject. I think it was called "the green primary"

Re: Why Governments Fail

#100

Post by imtringued »

billytetrud wrote: post #69
naravara wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the actual mechanism by which political corruption works. Lobbying is merely any person going in to press their interests with their representatives. Where large, monied interests rig the game is because they run election campaigns and implant narratives in the media. In other words, the mechanism by which lobbyists get their way is by weaponizing regular citizens into voting in their interests. It's mark…

I think there is a lot more quid pro quo than you think. Lobbiests are NOT usually just regular people. They're usually paid agents.

I think he made a distinction between lobbying which anyone can do and a lobbyist which is a career whose sole goal is to do nothing but lobbying.
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