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TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

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Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#131

Post by wtallis »

mbreese wrote: post #125
gcb wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is withhold/destroying evidence in that case. it's there for anyone to see... encrypted. Can I go to federal prison if the police ask to me translate some paper in foreign language I happen to have in my pocket and i refuse/don't know the language?

No, you couldn't be compelled to translate a document in a foreign language. The police have another way to get the information - ask someone else who knows the language to do it. You would be making their job harder, but not impossible. In the case of an encryption key, you might be the only one that can assist the investigation. So you'd be hindering it. At least that's how I'd see it.

The accused will often be the only one who knows how strong the encryption is, or how prevalent the foreign language is, so they're the only one who knows whether it is possible for the police to decrypt/translate without their cooperation. Thus, in reality, the determination of whether the accused can be compelled to provide the decryption information cannot depend on the strength of the encryption/obfuscation.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#132

Post by westicle »

AretNCarlsen wrote: post #119
maratd wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what it would look like. VLC would have a link to D:\pirate_movie.avi but when you decrypt the volume, all it shows is a bunch of text files on D:\ ... because the password provided is a trigger for the software to show a bunch of text files, not your pirated movie collection. Granted, if we were working for the prosecutor we would be able to put 2 and 2 together ... but ... these are the same morons who j…

And if they do put 2 and 2 together, now you have perjured yourself, not just refused to testify. Much worse. > Just jerk off to normal porn like everybody else, problem solved. sigh First they came for those accused of pedophilia, and I said nothing because I wasn't accused of pedophilia.

Ironic invocation of Godwin's Law?

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#133

Post by MichaelApproved »

etha wrote: post #94
johnrob wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 5th amendment doesn't mean you can block normal legal proceedings just because they would happen to incriminate you. You do have the right to remain silent, however. That might be a stronger defense.

That only means you don't have to say anything to the police while you are in custody but have not yet been charged with a crime, and your lawyer is not present. It's not meant as a blanket protection against having to give testimony.

It is blanket protection from testifying during any phase except if you've been given immunity. Then your testimony cannot be used against you and you can be compelled to testify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_S...

"If the government gives an individual immunity, then that individual may be compelled to testify. Immunity may be "transactional immunity" or "use immunity"; in the former, the witness is immune from prosecution for offenses related to the testimony; in the latter, the witness may be prosecuted, but his testimony may not be used against him. In Kastigar v. United States, 406 U.S. 441 (1972), the Supreme Court held that the government need only grant use immunity to compel testimony. The use immunity, however, must extend not only to the testimony made by the witness, but also to all evidence derived therefrom. This scenario most commonly arises in cases related to organized crime."

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#134

Post by gcb »

mbreese wrote: post #125
gcb wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is withhold/destroying evidence in that case. it's there for anyone to see... encrypted. Can I go to federal prison if the police ask to me translate some paper in foreign language I happen to have in my pocket and i refuse/don't know the language?

No, you couldn't be compelled to translate a document in a foreign language. The police have another way to get the information - ask someone else who knows the language to do it. You would be making their job harder, but not impossible. In the case of an encryption key, you might be the only one that can assist the investigation. So you'd be hindering it. At least that's how I'd see it.

it may not even be a real language... you are distorting the point.

I myself may not know how to read what is on the paper

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#135

Post by gcb »

Agathos wrote: post #121
gcb wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lost the key for several of my spare drivers in the closet... How can that power abuse you describe be avoided on innocents?

Explain to the jury that you lost the key before you knew there was a criminal investigation. It only becomes illegal afterward.

don't they only have access to my stuff AFTER they showed probable cause.

does not make much sense to me...

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#136

Post by derobert »

praptak wrote: post #28
mdonahoe wrote: post #11

Until the 5th amendment and encryption issues get worked out, these drives should delete themselves upon unauthorized access.

This would require a costly hardware-based solution. If such a solution were to become popular, the law enforcement would certainly find ways to prevent it, e.g. x-ray the disks before switching power to find the crypto chip + thermite bomb.

The much more obvious way to implement this would be to have a tamper-proof hardware dongle that (a) accepts, as input, a passphrase; (b) uses that passphrase to derive a key; (c) used that derived key to decrypt some data stored, e.g., in flash on the processor chip; (d) confirms the data decrypted correctly, if correct return the key, else overwrite the flash with new random data, and return that new data.

That data, would of course be the actual key used to encrypt the drive.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#137

Post by ahi »

maratd wrote: post #80
jgmmo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called the Fifth Amendment. "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself"

The password that you are requested to provide to the court is not incriminating. There is no law against having passwords or using passwords. The Fifth Amendment doesn't apply. The incriminating part is the data on the drive ... and you are not being requested to testify ... it's there and has already been confiscated by the police using a legal warrant. This situation stinks, for sure. If you want to protect yourse…

Providing the password is an admission of knowing the password.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#138

Post by dunmalg »

"I changed the password every 3 days and never memorized it. Current password was on a post-it on my monitor. Did you guys lose the post-it?"

Simple as that, right? They can't compel you to remember information you never had in memory. It's probably too late, as he's likely admitted to remembering the password. Dumb move.

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#139

Post by dunmalg »

dedward wrote: post #112
shareme wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a criminal case.,..which basically means if he judge requests a document that is encrypted on a hd than defendant cannot refuse or they are in contempt

Okay - but what if the argument is literally "I can't - the keyfile is lost" or Ignoring the details of this case, what if the court is ordering you to decrypt something that isn't even encrypted? It's just random data? They assume it is. You assume it isn't. I suppose in this case, the fact that the someone of authority already saw unencrypted contents gives them enough reason to be confident the drive is encrypted…

I'm partial to "I kept this week's password on a post-it note stuck to the keyboard. Did you lose the post-it?"

Re: TrueCrypt User Held in Contempt of Court

#140

Post by dmor »

gst wrote: post #99
ChuckMcM wrote: post #79

First, there isn't enough information to know what it is this person has (or has not) done. Secondly, the fifth amendment of the US Constitution allows you to refuse to provide testimony which you feel may incriminate you. Generally encryption pass phrases do not count as testimony, the legal system treats them as keys. And that would be covered under the fourth amendment which says the government cannot compel to yo…

"If they do have probable cause, they get a warrant which gives them the power to do the search temporarily and only for what they think exists. So if you get a warrant to search your hard drive for something, you are compelled to give them the password just like you are compelled to let them into your house if they have a warrant to search for something like drugs or guns or counterfeit plush toys." Does US law requ…

I can tell you what happens if you don't cooperate. They break your door down and they search anyway. Still working on getting ours fixed.

There are two ways to avoid this, either build a house with no doors, or don't have one.

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