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Why Governments Fail

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Re: Why Governments Fail

#31

Post by ModernMech »

ryandrake wrote: post #17
yosito wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we really want to build our society to survive viruses with the fewest causalities or are there perhaps higher ideals (freedom, self determiniation) that we should aspire to? I don't see why these have to be mutually exclusive goals. Arguably, there are better ways to get an entire society to cooperate toward a goal without resorting to authoritarianism. This sort of societal engineering is demonstrated in relig…

I don't understand the whole "freedom" argument against basic public health and safety guidance. Almost everyone wears their seatbelt in a car and doesn't complain about how their freedoms are being taken away in the name of safety. So why is this not the same with masks and distancing? Why is it that people think refusing to wear a mask transforms them into Braveheart, fighting for freedom against oppression? Sensib…

It's just because masks are new. People had the same negative reaction to seatbelts when they were first introduced, citing inane things like "it might wrinkle my shirt" as a reason not to wear them.

https://www.businessinsider.com/seatbelt-car-habit-obligatio...

Re: Why Governments Fail

#32

Post by mcculley »

slibhb wrote: post #30
mcculley wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the U.S. government failed. We should have implemented testing at scale immediately, found the infected, and paid them to stay home. While this would have cost a lot of money, it would have been less than the PPP and stimulus efforts.

I think this implies a historicist perspective. In other words, you tacitly demand that the government tell the future and act accordingly. Well obviously the government can't do that. I think "failure" should be a question of incompetent administration. That is, once a policy is decided, how well or poorly was it carried out? It may be that the government failed at carrying out mass testing.

I do not demand that the government successfully predict the future. In March 2020, it was obvious what was happening in other countries. We were informed by the past and the present to determine how to respond.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#33

Post by slibhb »

yosito wrote: post #10
slibhb wrote: post #7

Did the government fail? I don't know. We got a vaccine remarkably quickly and the governments (federal and state) distributed it efficiently. I don't blame the government for not taking the virus seriously to start with. SARS and MERS didn't pan out and people, on the left and right (including me), figured COVID would be the same. Some people predicted COVID would be bad but it wasn't crazy to think COVID wouldn't t…

> Do we really want to build our society to survive viruses with the fewest causalities or are there perhaps higher ideals (freedom, self determiniation) that we should aspire to? I don't see why these have to be mutually exclusive goals. Arguably, there are better ways to get an entire society to cooperate toward a goal without resorting to authoritarianism. This sort of societal engineering is demonstrated in relig…

It seems clear to me that "religions, cults, and political tribes" that enforce uniform behavior are by definition restricting freedom.

Which is not to say that freedom is never worth restricting. My general point was that I prefer American notions of freedom to East Asian notions of freedom.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#34

Post by nradov »

hungryhobo wrote: post #27
jonathannat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion is a bit all over the place. The main points are that EU failed vaccination, and US failed covid testing (Statista disagrees https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-... ) , as well as having a decline of innovation and movement (disagrees here, people moved everywhere during covid, and US came up with tons of effective vaccines) It's pretty hilarious both ignored discussing the curr…

> Came up with a 50% effective vaccine sinovac, and forces its citizens to take it is this worse than not having your own capacity to manufacture vaccine and having to beg other countries for vaccines? 50% efficacy is for transmission prevention, however when you consider effectiveness against deaths and hospitalization, it's >90% > Wolf warrior politics has infuriated almost every democratic countries on Earth, and…

The Indian government hasn't gotten a pass, they are being widely criticized in international news and social media. But there are significant difference in degree. China clearly is far worse on censorship and punishes dissent more harshly.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#35

Post by captaincurrie »

slibhb wrote: post #30
mcculley wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the U.S. government failed. We should have implemented testing at scale immediately, found the infected, and paid them to stay home. While this would have cost a lot of money, it would have been less than the PPP and stimulus efforts.

I think this implies a historicist perspective. In other words, you tacitly demand that the government tell the future and act accordingly. Well obviously the government can't do that. I think "failure" should be a question of incompetent administration. That is, once a policy is decided, how well or poorly was it carried out? It may be that the government failed at carrying out mass testing.

I'm a moron and I realized in March 2020 that testing at scale is the main pillar of any pandemic containment strategy.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#36

Post by slibhb »

mcculley wrote: post #32
slibhb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this implies a historicist perspective. In other words, you tacitly demand that the government tell the future and act accordingly. Well obviously the government can't do that. I think "failure" should be a question of incompetent administration. That is, once a policy is decided, how well or poorly was it carried out? It may be that the government failed at carrying out mass testing.

I do not demand that the government successfully predict the future. In March 2020, it was obvious what was happening in other countries. We were informed by the past and the present to determine how to respond.

> While this would have cost a lot of money, it would have been less than the PPP and stimulus efforts.

This quote is demanding that the government has access to future numbers, isn't it?

I don't agree that it was obvious what was happening in March. It's only obvious in retrospect.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#37

Post by jonathannat »

gonehome wrote: post #23
jonathannat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion is a bit all over the place. The main points are that EU failed vaccination, and US failed covid testing (Statista disagrees https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-... ) , as well as having a decline of innovation and movement (disagrees here, people moved everywhere during covid, and US came up with tons of effective vaccines) It's pretty hilarious both ignored discussing the curr…

> "The CCP is so insecure that they banned broadcast of oscars because of Chloe Zhao, because she mentioned CCP as failing one time in 2013" They're even here downvoting you. When they're willing to censor pooh bear there's nothing that doesn't cross that insecurity threshold. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnie-the-Pooh#Censorship_in_...

> They're even here downvoting you

Nah, if I had to guess, it's some of those patriotic Mainland Chinese living in beautiful democratic countries like US and Canada.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#38

Post by paulpauper »

If otherwise young, healthy ppl were dropping dead in droves because of this, then I think there would have been more more mobilization, cooperation, and compliance, but the later data showed Covid only being slightly more deadly than the flu for young and middle-aged people instead of 40x as deadly as originally feared.So the urgency and concern began to dissipate by mid-2020 when the studies came about affirming a much lower IFR than originally feared. Second, many of these European counties, which early on seemed to have contained the virus owing to superior policy decisions and praised by the media while Trump was heavily criticized, had major second, third and even forth wages by late 2020 and 2021. This show the difficulty of ascribing blame either way due to the inherent unpredictability and virulence of Covid.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#39

Post by mcculley »

slibhb wrote: post #36
mcculley wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not demand that the government successfully predict the future. In March 2020, it was obvious what was happening in other countries. We were informed by the past and the present to determine how to respond.

> While this would have cost a lot of money, it would have been less than the PPP and stimulus efforts. This quote is demanding that the government has access to future numbers, isn't it? I don't agree that it was obvious what was happening in March. It's only obvious in retrospect.

It was obvious to me and many others. I posted on March 11, 2020 that we should get our shit together and test at scale, as South Korea and other countries with effective government were doing. I was not demanding supernatural prognostication, just competence.

Now we pay the price.

Re: Why Governments Fail

#40

Post by shuntress »

ryandrake wrote: post #17
yosito wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do we really want to build our society to survive viruses with the fewest causalities or are there perhaps higher ideals (freedom, self determiniation) that we should aspire to? I don't see why these have to be mutually exclusive goals. Arguably, there are better ways to get an entire society to cooperate toward a goal without resorting to authoritarianism. This sort of societal engineering is demonstrated in relig…

I don't understand the whole "freedom" argument against basic public health and safety guidance. Almost everyone wears their seatbelt in a car and doesn't complain about how their freedoms are being taken away in the name of safety. So why is this not the same with masks and distancing? Why is it that people think refusing to wear a mask transforms them into Braveheart, fighting for freedom against oppression? Sensib…

>Why is it that people think refusing to wear a mask transforms them into Braveheart

Because that was the message in the echo chamber they didn't know they were in.

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