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“No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

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101–110 of 126 posts

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#101
post #82

This interpretation of "state created danger" seems remarkably overbroad. By this logic, you could tie just about any danger back to the state with a similar degree of proximity. Take someone hit by a drunk driver, for example. The government repealed Prohibition, regulates and licenses alcohol production and sale, and is fully aware of the risks of drivers abusing alcohol (DUI laws, PSAs, etc). That sure sounds like…

> By this logic, you could tie just about any danger back to the state with a similar degree of proximity.

Um, if you actually read the detailed recitation of relevant fact findings in the decision, I don’t think you can trace most dangers back to the state with similar proximity.

> Take someone hit by a drunk driver, for example. The government repealed Prohibition, regulates and licenses alcohol production and sale, and is fully aware of the risks of drivers abusing alcohol (DUI laws, PSAs, etc). That sure sounds like an active, willing, and knowing participant in creating the conditions of the danger.

That’s not nearly the specificity of the harms to particular persons that is established with the skid row containment policy.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#102
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have my popcorn ready to watch the appeals process and policy discussions this should engender. I expect that much of the ruling will be struck down, but cannot help but think that the state-caused-danger has legs. Ultimately, my guess is that a superior court will set the judgement aside while upholding some elements as correct, then direct the city and county to address those specific elements deemed to have meri…

Yeah, the courts generally say that you have to accommodate or remedy whatever the general request or grievance. They generally do not write/rewrite policy. That's supposed be for the executive and legislative branch to come up with. It should be interesting to watch. My guess is we won't hear the final result for a few years... as usual.

> Yeah, the courts generally say that you have to accommodate or remedy whatever the general request or grievance. They generally do not write/rewrite policy.

That’s…actually not all that true, especially in the case of systematic racial discrimination by local government. School integration, including bussing, is a pretty good example where policy was often dictated in fairly explicit detail by the courts.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#103
post #20

Obviously the US can afford housing the homeless. I just don't understand how a judge can just decide to spend a billion dollars.

> Obviously the US can afford housing the homeless. I just don’t understand how a judge can just decide to spend a billion dollars.

The judge didn’t decide to spend a billion dollars. The judge ordered the city to put $1 billion dollars the mayor had pledged to the cause of homelessness in escrow. The actions ordered by the court may cost more or less than $1 billion.

The courts have broad authority to order government or other parties to take action to remediate (or cease exacerbating) unlawful harms they have caused; and $1 billion isn’t anywhere near the maximum that it has cost the subject of such an order to comply.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#105
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the courts generally say that you have to accommodate or remedy whatever the general request or grievance. They generally do not write/rewrite policy. That's supposed be for the executive and legislative branch to come up with. It should be interesting to watch. My guess is we won't hear the final result for a few years... as usual.

> Yeah, the courts generally say that you have to accommodate or remedy whatever the general request or grievance. They generally do not write/rewrite policy. That’s…actually not all that true, especially in the case of systematic racial discrimination by local government. School integration, including bussing, is a pretty good example where policy was often dictated in fairly explicit detail by the courts.

In the case of school integration, the prior ruling under Brown was not being followed. That failure to follow that ruling then lead to a second judgement giving judges specific powers to force the correct implementation of Brown if the school districts had not done it themselves.

It's very odd to jump directly to writing detailed policy on a first judgment. Usually it's only that a specific policy is not allowed or general issue must be corrected. Usually it takes a failure of valid corrective policy to be implement for the courts to force a specific policy which they have devised.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#106
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You are probably not a Christian, but you have a large Christian population and that they allow this to happen just highlights the hypocrisy of the entire idea of the United States." I'm interested... what is the entire idea of the US?

[flagged]

How exactly do you propose we fix it? What exactly is "it"?

The US sends more foriegn aid money than any other country, around $30 billion (excluding the loans China tries to pass off as aid). That's just the amount from the government. There is a lot of charitable donations and work that come from nongovernment groups too. The party issues you speak of can be tricky. Some of that divide can be a difference in views on how something should be done. Some people oppose government charity and want private charity to take a bigger role, and they donate accordingly. Of course that's not the case for everyone.

Many of the issues in today's society will not simply disappear by throwing money at them. That said, I do think the homeless issue could be handled better. I think Norway or a neighboring country has a good program that focuses on getting people back into the workforce.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#107

Before commenting, please read the entire article, not just the headline or first paragraph. The interesting part is the details of the decision and next steps. Whatever one’s views on how to address homelessness, this decision is interesting. The article links to the full decision as well.

Read through and it seems to be a crazy plan for me. The judge appears to be extremely ideology driven and a believer of the critical race theory to his core. It is also laughable to think a judge has a grand plan to solve a societal issue. So a judge appointed himself to be the supreme planner of the city? The idea that a judge thinks himself can solve the homeless problem with a big plan is by itself pathetic.

> Read through and it seems to be a crazy plan for me.

There’s no as actual plan, just “you will put the money you promised to spend on this in escrow so as to not put the plaintiff’s in a worse situation than you have already announced the intent to, and then you will make certain explanations and achieve certain goals by set times”. A plan would specify how those results will be met.

> It is also laughable to think a judge has a grand plan to solve a societal issue.

This is not a plan nor is it aiming to solve a societal issue.

> So a judge appointed himself to be the supreme planner of the city?

No, the appointment was by the President of the United States with the advice and consent of the Senate, and the position is judge of the adherence of parties brought before his court with federal law, with the broad power to order behavior changes where there are breaches in that adherence with harms to other parties.

> The idea that a judge thinks himself can solve the homeless problem with a big plan is by itself pathetic.

The particular identified Constitutional breaches involved in the city of LA creating Skid Row and then actively choosing a containment polcy to trap people there and prolong the harms deliverately inflicted is not equivalent to the broader “homeless problem”, and the order here isn’t a solution to either the former or the latter but a direction to cease and mitigate the active and ongoing harm LA is doing to the subjects of the former. A solution (or at least, compensatory remedy) for the former, narrower, problem would likely be a component of the final judgement if (as seems likely) LA loses the case, this is merely a preliminary injunction to avoid irreparable harm during the pendency of thr trial, not a remedy for past harm or permanent solution.

Yes, it would be crazy if the judge was doing what you describe, but the judge is doing something much narrower.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judge literally said that it’s up to the government to both solve it and deliver a report as to why it happened. This is basically your boss “solving” issues by assigning the task to you. The bosses lack of expertise is irrelevant so long as you are actually capable of doing what is asked.

"so long as you are actually capable of doing what is asked"?

In this case, so long as the many hundreds of people in city government can solve the homelessness problem in 180 then it doesn’t matter that the judge couldn’t produce a solution on his own. He did order them to do it.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#109

> To enable that, Judge Carter ordered the city to place $1 billion in escrow; ordered the cessation of all sales or transfers of public lands; ... While I agree that Skid Row is a disaster. If I were a Californian, I don't think I'd be comfortable with this degree of legislating from the bench.

> While I agree that Skid Row is a disaster. If I were a Californian, I don't think I'd be comfortable with this degree of legislating from the bench.

As a Californian, I’m not comfortable with the degree of active racial and other unlawful discrimination and actively seeking to preserve the harms of that discrimination carried out by the City of Los Angeles with no impediment from the State of California.

As an American, I’m not at all unhappy with the federal courts stepping in this way when a state, or a subdivision thereof, violates the rights secured to the people under the Constitution.

Re: “No Defense of the Indefensible”: L.A. Judge Makes Landmark Homelessness Ruling

#110

Interesting that no mention is made of appeal. Is the city willing to embark on this without challenging it? That's almost too much to hope for, so I hate to assume.

So to update, it has been appealed: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-judge-orders-lo...
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