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The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

dpmms.cam.ac.uk

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Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#21
post #11

I wrote a blog post a few years ago[1] making a similar claim about computer science. I said there’s 3 main camps of programmers: - People who enjoy programming because it’s mathematically beautiful (eg Haskell programmers) - People who enjoy programming because they like reasoning about machines, and like mechanical sympathy (eg C programmers) - And people who like programming because it can solve real problems for…

I’m a multi camper as I studied maths but originally got into programming as a creative pursuit. Guess us multis are going to pipe up!

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#22
post #11

I wrote a blog post a few years ago[1] making a similar claim about computer science. I said there’s 3 main camps of programmers: - People who enjoy programming because it’s mathematically beautiful (eg Haskell programmers) - People who enjoy programming because they like reasoning about machines, and like mechanical sympathy (eg C programmers) - And people who like programming because it can solve real problems for…

And people that do not care about any of those things and just want a paycheck, or to be promoted so that they do not have to code anymore (95% of developers worldwide). Unfortunately the people that get excited building things is outnumbered by the people that is just in this for the money.

>Unfortunately the people that get excited building things is outnumbered by the people that is just in this for the money.

I don't think there's a reason to be sad about it. There are plenty of e.g. maintenance jobs in the industry, and people who are passionate about programming may not be the best fit for this niche - it's boring, and sometimes you feel the urge to re-invent a few wheels even in detriment to actual business needs. For not-so-passionate however it's a good place - minimize efforts while having good salary.

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#23

In case it is not familiar, the title of this alludes to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures

Thanks. I didn’t know this. So it’s a recursive phenomenon and as culture continues developing we can expect quite a mess of a fractal. That would explain the noticeable decline in ability of holistic judgement and the rise of kompetencelessness.

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#24
post #11

I wrote a blog post a few years ago[1] making a similar claim about computer science. I said there’s 3 main camps of programmers: - People who enjoy programming because it’s mathematically beautiful (eg Haskell programmers) - People who enjoy programming because they like reasoning about machines, and like mechanical sympathy (eg C programmers) - And people who like programming because it can solve real problems for…

[deleted]

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#25
post #11

I wrote a blog post a few years ago[1] making a similar claim about computer science. I said there’s 3 main camps of programmers: - People who enjoy programming because it’s mathematically beautiful (eg Haskell programmers) - People who enjoy programming because they like reasoning about machines, and like mechanical sympathy (eg C programmers) - And people who like programming because it can solve real problems for…

I like C-like programming languages, and I like to solve real world problems for my users. So two camps, I guess. Moreover I was always that annoying kid in class who would ask the teacher, “but what use is that?” Often the teacher couldn't even answer this very simple question, and every time that happened it left me really unmotivated to learn. The epiphany came in Upper Secondary school when a math teacher shushed the other pupils and actually took his time to tell me what {insert abstract math topic here} was actually good for. This changed a lot for me, but as far as grades go, it was already too late. Though at least it left me interested enough to research some things on my spare time, so when I finally came to the university, I almost couldn't believe my own eyes when I started to get good grades on (for me) pretty advanced math topics. I obviously still have a pretty big disadvantage in mathematics, but researching things that require stuff like abstract algebra and calculus is now much less of a hurdle for me.

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#26
post #11

I wrote a blog post a few years ago[1] making a similar claim about computer science. I said there’s 3 main camps of programmers: - People who enjoy programming because it’s mathematically beautiful (eg Haskell programmers) - People who enjoy programming because they like reasoning about machines, and like mechanical sympathy (eg C programmers) - And people who like programming because it can solve real problems for…

[deleted]

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#27
post #11

I wrote a blog post a few years ago[1] making a similar claim about computer science. I said there’s 3 main camps of programmers: - People who enjoy programming because it’s mathematically beautiful (eg Haskell programmers) - People who enjoy programming because they like reasoning about machines, and like mechanical sympathy (eg C programmers) - And people who like programming because it can solve real problems for…

Those 3 categories fall into the broader category of "enthusiastic programmers" which aren't the majority from my experience. Most people want to leave the office knowing that they have made some progress with their assigned work, knowing that they haven't screwed anything generally and being able to sleep at night.

The thing about being "enthusiastic" is that certain cultures and organizations wouldn't at all recognise it and an otherwise enthusiastic programmer can easily become a drudge when the business requirements are just some company-specific internal rules changing all the time.

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#28
post #3

It appears that roughly the point of the OP (original post) is that in math there are two cultures (1) people who want to develop new fields of math with definitions, theorems, and proofs and (2) people who want to use math, all or nearly all old, to solve problems usually from outside math. Apparently the OP is from the UK (United Kingdom). Here I attempt to provide a view and explanation of those two cultures from…

You seem to imply that the two cultures are pure vs applied but that’s not really right. Something like Sturm-Liouville theory is generally very applied and useful but falls into culture 1. The sort of mathematics that Erdős did was pure but fell more into culture 2.

You might be correct in part or in whole. We'd have to discuss back and forth! My (1) and (2) will have to be at best only rough, and to save space I omitted the real examples I have in mind to formulate those two. Writing clearly, briefly, and precisely about big subjects is not always easy!

The time I encountered Strum-Louville theory was a course from the fairly well known Hildebrand, Advanced Calculus for Applications from MIT and by a professor with a recent MIT Ph.D. By the way, that book is available in PDF on the Internet for free. To me the topic looked like the math of vibrating strings, etc., but the course did not go deeply into Sturm-Louville theory or anything else. So, from that course I have regarded Sturm-Louville theory now as in (2); but if there is some continuing, deep work there, maybe it belongs in (1). Maybe I touched on that subject once more; talking to M. Athans at MIT, he explained that the optimal control problem I was considering was a "two point boundary value problem with mixed end conditions". So, maybe there are connections with control theory.

For Erdős, I have just regarded him as all in (1), but he seemed to have gotten problems from anywhere, including from outside math so might be in (2). Sooo, for the problems outside math, I meant relatively practical problems, ones where solutions would a lot of value, financial or scientific, for fields outside of math. I've always regarded Erdős as working a lot on interesting, tricky, puzzle problems. But I don't know Erdős's work at all well.

Maybe I can summarize: Back when I had one foot in each of (1) and (2), my definition of applied math was like a recipe for rabbit stew -- "First catch a rabbit." So, first get an application, i.e., from outside math, where an application solves a problem that in some sense is pressing and practical.

Examples: At FedEx, how to schedule the fleet? How to project revenue for years in advance? How best to climb, cruise, and descend an airplane? How to plan an airplane tour under uncertainty. Back in military work, how to use the Navier-Stokes equations to design ship propellers? How to process the data to do beam forming from arrays of passive sonar? How to evaluate the survivability of the US SSBN submarines? How to target missiles? How best to search for a submarine? In a simulation, how to generate ocean waves with a given power spectral density? How to respond to ill-conditioned matrices in regression problems? How to do least squares spline fitting, including for multidimensional data? For each of these problems, there were people who cared a lot about getting the solutions -- these were applications. Puzzle problems seem to be applications of a different kind.

Maybe now there are some good applications to be made analysis of DNA.

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#29
post #11

I wrote a blog post a few years ago[1] making a similar claim about computer science. I said there’s 3 main camps of programmers: - People who enjoy programming because it’s mathematically beautiful (eg Haskell programmers) - People who enjoy programming because they like reasoning about machines, and like mechanical sympathy (eg C programmers) - And people who like programming because it can solve real problems for…

Those 3 categories fall into the broader category of "enthusiastic programmers" which aren't the majority from my experience. Most people want to leave the office knowing that they have made some progress with their assigned work, knowing that they haven't screwed anything generally and being able to sleep at night. The thing about being "enthusiastic" is that certain cultures and organizations wouldn't at all recogn…

> [...] an otherwise enthusiastic programmer can easily become a drudge when the business requirements are just some company-specific internal rules changing all the time.

It's not even that: you can take company internal rule changes and make it 'fun'. Or at least as fun as anything else.

It's perhaps more the attitude of the organization. Both the wider organization and their software making department(s).

Re: The Two Cultures of Mathematics (2000) [pdf]

#30
It sounds like the distinction is between pure and applied mathematics, though the writer says that the battle is within pure mathematics.

I've also read about two other categorizations of mathematicians: active and passive. The active are out trying to prove new theorems while passive mathematicians are trying to collect and generalize past theorems. Finding generalizations also requires new theorems and could be argued to be an active task, but this sounded like a distinction between researcher and educator, and has stuck with me.

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