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The Girl in the Kent State Photo

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#81

Post by happytoexplain »

antattack wrote: post #76
pmoriarty wrote: post #9

"Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor's office, blaming "dirty hippies," "longhairs" and "outside agitators" for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, "At least we got four of them." Nixon issued a statement saying that the students' actions had invited the tra…

It's meant to convince you that how you feel is in minority. Those in power are working hard to control the narrative. "Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." — Geo. Orwell, 1984

You think the article is trying to convince the reader that the majority of Americans hold the quoted views to their specific extremity, and that this is part of a larger effort by "those in power"? Combined with your dramatic quote (Orwell is getting a little tired these days), this seems like an exaggeration to paint a conspiracy for the purpose of playing the victim.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#82

Post by BobbyJo »

a4isms wrote: post #26
BobbyJo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think things like that are more a result of how information gets disseminated, and how it's framed, than bloodthirst. I'm sure if you took the people that hung that banner and made them hold hand with one of the students as they died, their enthusiasm would quickly fade. The word 'death' is just an abstraction that feels small when you're young, healthy, and haven't had to watch it happen. It's only easy to look at…

I applaud your optimism and boundless faith in humanity. But as a POC, I point out that America has a long tradition of taking children to witness lynchings, and the children would cheer. Or to beat foxes to death with sticks. I don't think it’s as simple as “people don’t have emppathy when death is abstract and indirect.” Lots of people don’t have empathy when they’re socially conditioned to believe a certain type o…

>But as a POC, I point out that America has a long tradition of taking children to witness lynchings, and the children would cheer. Or to beat foxes to death with sticks.

>I do not believe for a moment that witnessing the murders would change their minds, because even as video circulates showing the murder happening, they continue to cheer.

Social conditioning is a way to reinforce the abstraction over the reality though. I come from a right wing family and have seen it several times, not to mention how often it's reflected in memes criticizing the right: they change their minds when it happens to them. Cheney and his gay daughter is a prime example. Being part of a mob and watching another part do something bad to still another (perceived) mob feels more like theater than reality.

>I also don’t think we can conflate this with arguments about “people you disagree with.” We’re not talking about people sitting down and debating free love or long hair.

It's not conflating, it's reality. Those people can vote. They go to work. They are cops. They are doctors. They are school teachers. If you choose not to engage them as thinking people, how do you plan to change their minds? If you don't plan to change their minds, then what's the plan?

>We’re talking about people who believe that other people are literally a disease infecting society that should be exterminated as quickly as possible, preferably in such a way that it sends a message to others.

Are we? Knowing tons of very right wing people, I don't really see anyone happy about the kinds of deaths you're referring to. I see people defending police, giving them (perhaps too much) benefit of the doubt, and at times ignoring wrong doing, but that's a long way from a lynch mob. Not to say it's in good taste, but I think you're stretching a lack of sympathy, or perhaps willful ignorance at the extreme, to be the same as hate. From my perspective some people are just more concerned with law and order than fairness, and it's because they aren't on the losing end, not because they're malicious.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#83

Post by happytoexplain »

fruity123 wrote: post #65
pmoriarty wrote: post #9

"Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor's office, blaming "dirty hippies," "longhairs" and "outside agitators" for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, "At least we got four of them." Nixon issued a statement saying that the students' actions had invited the tra…

There is no doubt that a similar reaction would occur today from the left if it was a Trump rally. Why? Trump supporters are nazis, etc, etc. They are dehumanized. It’s easy to be outraged when it’s a cause you support, but the true test is when it’s someone for a cause you don’t support.

Not to be petty, but, while there is plenty of merit to the idea that there are persecutors on the left, my experience has unfailingly been that the right continues to hold (to the misfortune of all reasonable conservatives) an incomparably large share of the kind of hatred and desire for violence against one's own countrymen that is illustrated by the parent post. So it was in the 60's, and so it has been since. In fact, Trump's support for that attitude and that segment of his base is a big part of why the left reacts so strongly to him.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#84

Post by PostOnce »

adamcstephens wrote: post #71
PostOnce wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would have been bloodless had the Union just said "okay let's have slavery." But they didn't do that. They laid down their lives instead. Like I said before, picking out only the things we dislike and overlooking positives isn't productive or honest to ourselves.

The Republicans were only trying to avoid expansion of slavery, not elimination of it. They fought to maintain the Union, not abolition. Only later did they free the slaves, and as an act of war more than freedom.

How about these 178,000 men, of whom about 35,000 died: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Colored_Troops

I don't think their primary motivation was preservation of the Union, I think it was abolition.

Let's not pretend preservation of the Union was the only major factor, or that abolition was entirely a back-burner concept, it had been building steam and popular support for decades.

Sure, preserving the Union may have been the main concern on a realpolitik level early on, but that doesn't change the fact that abolition was the writing on the wall and had been for decades.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#85

Post by throwaway1090 »

Stupulous wrote: post #61
klmadfejno wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Christianity brought "turn the other cheek", but 2000 years later look where we are. I've no interest in a debate on religion, but Christianity is the religion that brought "bad people burn in hell for eternity".

Christianity doesn't have the power to torture people for eternity, and it does have the power to influence believers towards forgiveness. "Bad people burn in hell" is a reassurance that the universe is just, which further enables forgiveness on earth.

The thing is 'bad people' include those who masturbate, LGBTs and many other such crazy definitions that cause real harm to kids and adults.

Obviously, not all Christians and factions of Christianity.

Edit: Also, in some factions, a big part of 'forgiveness' is confessing to a male 'virgin'. For kids and adults.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#86

Post by baobabKoodaa »

pomian wrote: post #62
hiisukun wrote: post #2

I cannot read this article without subscribing, and the title gives very little information. To save others a click: In 1970, an image of a dead protester immediately became iconic. But what happened to the 14-year-old kneeling next to him?

Can read the whole article, and it is well written and interesting; Using the HN 'materialistic' app.

Not sure why you're shilling the Materialistic app for this, I also use it and am unable to read the article. When I click on the link it just renders a blank white page.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#87

Post by throw0101a »

redler wrote: post #68
spoonjim wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who views the Kent State killings as “justice” is deeply dangerous to the health and well-being of those around them.

There are state laws now being passed that make “blocking roads in protest” a felony, while legalizing running over protestors with your car.

> while legalizing running over protestors with your car.

Oklahoma:

A motor vehicle operator who unintentionally causes injury or death to an individual shall not be criminally or civilly liable for the injury or death, if:

1. The injury or death of the individual occurred while the motor vehicle operator was fleeing from a riot, as defined in Section 1311 of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes, under a reasonable belief that fleeing was necessary to protect the motor vehicle operator from serious injury or death; and

2. The motor vehicle operator exercised due care at the time of the death or injury.

* http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2021-22%20ENR/hB/HB...

Florida:

870.07 Affirmative defense in civil action; party convicted of riot. (1) In a civil action for damages for personal injury, wrongful death, or property damage, it is an affirmative defense that such action arose from an injury or damage sustained by a participant acting in furtherance of a riot. The affirmative defense authorized by this section shall be established by evidence that the participant has been convicted of a riot or an aggravated riot prohibited under s. 870.01, or by proof of the commission of such crime by a preponderance of the evidence.

* https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/1/BillText/er/PDF

If you are trying to flee for your (perceived?) safety during a "riot", then it seems to be treated as a form of self defence (?).

From:

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26931096

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#88

Post by antattack »

happytoexplain wrote: post #81
antattack wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's meant to convince you that how you feel is in minority. Those in power are working hard to control the narrative. "Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past." — Geo. Orwell, 1984

You think the article is trying to convince the reader that the majority of Americans hold the quoted views to their specific extremity , and that this is part of a larger effort by "those in power"? Combined with your dramatic quote (Orwell is getting a little tired these days), this seems like an exaggeration to paint a conspiracy for the purpose of playing the victim.

My comment was in regard to propaganda that followed the incident, working to belittle victims and participants and promote government actions.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#89

Post by throwaway8581 »

simonh wrote: post #15
throwaway8581 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I mean literally the same people telling you to believe one tell you to believe the other. And that particular tribe is very obedient of their media leaders.

That cuts both ways. There are a lot of people who see themselves as pro law and order, would deplore a protest in which a police officer was killed, would normally be horrified by protesters chanting “shoot him with his own gun” when they isolated an officer, yet sympathise with the Capitol protests where both of these things happened. The truth is most of the Capitol protesters probably had no intention to actually…

A police officer was not killed. He died of natural causes as the coroner recently reported. Maybe stop listening to CNN.
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