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Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

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Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#611
post #485
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery lifetimes were initially cast at 5 years and more than half the car cost to replace. They have both got cheaper to replace, and have retained value after out of the car, and have had lifetimes extended. So, your input maths needs some adjustment. Maybe not "its zero" but its not as bad as you fear. You didn't calculate TCO for the ICE maintenance costs and you need to: EV have significantly smaller maintenanc…

> on top of the expensive six monthly motor service Please elaborate.

Elaborate what? The car had six monthly service cycle and it was not cheap. The clutches and gearbox were down to careless driving technique. Electric motors don't get deployed with clutches and are mostly electronic continuously variable gearing and the service costs are significantly cheaper on average than for an ICE. It's that simple.

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#612
post #243

I've been following the id.4 release with moderate interest. I previously had a 2016 Golf R 6 speed manual, and now have a 2018 Tesla Model 3. IMO, the VW is just too expensive. Now, if you're getting the tax credit on the VW, and of course can't get it on a Tesla anymore, that makes the difference. But without the credit, the id4 is virtually the price of an AWD Model Y. For a vehicle that doesn't have AWD, has a to…

I'm always so amused when I see people complaining about certain cars being too expensive. The cheapest Tesla Model 3 costs 160k SGD here, which is about 120k USD. And it gets more expensive from there. Not to mention the fact that your COE expires after 10 years after which you have to pay another 50k to be allowed to drive it for another 10 years.

Ok? I'm saying the VW is too expensive for what it is, in the market it competes in, in the US and I believe in Europe as well.

If you show me how the VW is a great bargain in your country vs the Tesla, that's an interesting argument.

Complaining that cars are cheap in countries other than your own doesn't really relate to the VW's relative place in the market.

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#613
post #243

I've been following the id.4 release with moderate interest. I previously had a 2016 Golf R 6 speed manual, and now have a 2018 Tesla Model 3. IMO, the VW is just too expensive. Now, if you're getting the tax credit on the VW, and of course can't get it on a Tesla anymore, that makes the difference. But without the credit, the id4 is virtually the price of an AWD Model Y. For a vehicle that doesn't have AWD, has a to…

It’s $17k cheaper than the Model Y you’re talking about (longer range, AWD) after the tax credit.

Tax credit depends on the state, of course. And I suspect your "$17k cheaper" is currently vaporware:

> The ID.4 will eschew Volkswagen's traditional S, SE, and SEL trim hierarchy and instead will be offered in base, Pro, and 1st Edition trims. A base model priced around $35,000 will satisfy value-minded consumers with EV aspirations, but that entry-level ID.4 won't launch until sometime in 2022. In the meantime, the ID.4 Pro and loaded 1st Edition models serve as the ID.4's launch trims.[1]

1. https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/id4

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what will happen to the SUV vs. car distribution when “gas guzzler” isn’t a consideration anymore. There’s still parking, of course, but most SUVs I see have the same wheelbase as their sedan counterparts. They’re just tall.

Wouldn't the term just be swapped for something like "power pilferer"? (I'm assuming that a heavier EV will mean less miles per KWh or whatever the measure is)

Using excess energy from renewable sources harms only the user's wallet, instead of the whole world.

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#615
post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question- have you found winter temps to be much of an issue in terms of range loss?

There is loss, around 10%. One way to reduce it is to pre-heat the car while charging. Heat pumps in EVs are efficient/fast, and less annoying than waiting forever for a gas car to defrost. There is also the additional friction from winter tires, and in summer drag from a bike rack. A bit similar to gas consumption, but does require planning stops on long trips.

Thanks for the reply. That's actually less loss than I would have guessed,I appreciate the info.

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#616
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in the Yukon, Canada for 4 years, and rode my bike 365 days a year. Yes, even in -40 and beyond temperatures I rode. In fact, Whitehorse has the highest rate of bike ridership in Canada!

Wow that's pretty amazing. I'm a Californian in Boston and I managed to ride when it was about 0F out and I thought that was a bit much. How do you dress for such a venture? I find that either I'm freezing cold when starting off until I get warm through exertion, or I'm comfortable starting off and am sweltering by the time I get where I'm going.

It's a tricky balance, and usually you want to start a bit cold, knowing you'll get warm "Be bold, start cold" - but of course you have to watch out for frostbite.

My commute to work was only ~15mins on the bike, and for the first half I was a bit cold, and then the second half I was unzipping my jacket and would even stand outside the office with no jacket of toque or gloves for 3-5 minutes in -40 temps to cool off. The steam coming off me was always fun :)

With a longer ride (my landlord rode 40 mins each way) you stop after about 20 minutes and change layers - usually go for windproof with minimal insulation to prevent overheating/sweating.

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#617
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only fair if the people making polluting electricity pay to clean up the pollution they create

Your reply is nonsensical / a non sequitur. Where I live the local utility is 100% renewable anyway.

Then it's fair.

However people making electricity by polluting our planet are stealing from us, so should have to pay more, have to disadvantage those people more than you disadvantage solar producers

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#618
post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the stats for New Zealand: https://ehinz.ac.nz/indicators/transport/road-traffic-injury... Bikes are definitely far more dangerous than cars. Not as much as motorcycles, but that’s scant comfort.

This is a bit misleading. With bikes, you usually only do a couple of km per day, whereas with your car you probably do 10x that. If you look at the absolute number of deaths, biking is reasonably safe. As I said before, cities can do a lot to make it even safer, such as good bikelanes, better traffic lights for turns, better driver's education and so on.

Not really - most of this subthread is about people replacing their use of a car with a bike. In that case, you have to do the same number of km. They're probably not people who commute 50 km each way, but there aren't that many of those anyway.

I also disagree with looking at absolute numbers. Of course bikes look better there because compared to cars, very few people cycle in most places. Relative numbers are the only ones that make sense. Apart from this, I drive and cycle, and it seems obvious to me that cycling is considerably more dangerous. Everyone I know who cycles accepts that it's a case of when, not if, something goes wrong, and the consequences are obviously much worse on a bike.

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about an ID.Buzz until I took my Golf to a dealer for a 20K service. Then they tried to sell me tires for 4 x the price of Discount Tire - the tires on the car are absolutely fine - almost 1/4". Then they decided not to rotate my tires due to "tire condition" - to spite me? - and nickel and dimed me on a pair of wipers. I don't want to renew my relationship with a dealer. Especially not with an electri…

Yeah, but electric cars have so many fewer moving parts that they just don’t need much maintenance at all. As someone who has an EV now, I’m never going back because EVs are just so much better overall.

That's the theory.

The practice is ... different.

It doesn't matter matter if there are only 50% as many parts to service if servicing those parts costs three times as much.

At the end of the day, this is all revealed via depreciation.

Cars experiencing a lot of depreciation, by definition, are viewed by the market as more expensive to service over their usable life, as depreciation is just the forward payment of future maintenance costs:

Say a car will last for two periods. In the first period, the repair costs are zero, and in the second they are 15K. Now the car costs 35K new. Total ownership costs for both periods are thus 35+15 = 50K for 2 periods. Split evenly, that's 25K per period. But the buyer in period 2 will pay 15K in repair costs and 10K for the car. The buyer in period 1 will pay 25K in depreciation. Both parties pay 25K. If they didn't, and one party was paying more than the other, the put-upon party would prefer to buy new and resell instead, or buy used, etc, so in equilibrium, both parties pay for half the purchase price plus half the lifetime repair costs, except the new car buyer "pays" for their half of repair costs via depreciation whereas the used car buyer pays out of pocket.

Now you have a situation where Tesla Model 3s are depreciating at rates comparable to the dreaded BMWs -- notoriously expensive to maintain cars. E.g. they are losing 44% of their value after 5 years of ownership (source: https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/depreciation)

So it doesn't particularly matter that there are fewer moving parts, etc, as for some reason the market believes these cars are going to be about as expensive to maintain as BMWs, which have lots of moving parts (and lots of plastic parts).

Now if we know that, we can come to a few conclusions:

* the market is just wrong and out-of-warranty Teslas will be cheap to maintain, in which case there is an arbitrage opportunity to sell Tesla warranties and make lots of arbitrage profits. Feel like getting into that business? Me, neither.

* The theory is wrong and the fact that there is a simpler drivetrain doesn't have much to do with overall maintenance costs due to all the other stuff modern cars do that don't have to do with moving down the road. Uhh, maybe.

* The theory is right and the electric car makers are just screwing the pooch by managing to sell expensive to maintain cars even though there are fewer moving parts. I tend to favor this theory.

But in either case, arguing that because there are moving parts, the cars must be cheaper to maintain is a fallacy. It's a confusion of theory and practice in one of the many situations where out of warranty car owners are screaming in pain at their repair costs, and countering "muh moving parts" is missing the point.

Re: Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4

#620
post #611
post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on top of the expensive six monthly motor service Please elaborate.

Elaborate what? The car had six monthly service cycle and it was not cheap. The clutches and gearbox were down to careless driving technique. Electric motors don't get deployed with clutches and are mostly electronic continuously variable gearing and the service costs are significantly cheaper on average than for an ICE. It's that simple.

A Mazda 6 is a regular consumer car. Usually the only thing you need to do every 6 months is change the oil and filter and check fluids.

Per https://www.mazdausa.com/siteassets/pdf/owners-optimized/201... , the only thing you need to do every 6 months is change the oil and filter and check fluids, and lubricate the locks. Google says you can use conventional oil in a Mazda 6.

Please elaborate what you mean by expensive six monthly service. Did your regular service visits include additional items? What and why? And how much did they cost? I am curious what makes Mazda 6 regular service more than other ICE cars.

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