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Sisters with Transistors

rogerebert.com

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Re: Sisters with Transistors

#61

Post by layoutIfNeeded »

DavidVoid wrote: post #50
layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #31

“Music is haunted by the specters of Beethoven and Mozart, even Elvis and John Lennon, with the canon being built around these names that we are told deserve not just celebrating but worshipping. These old, dead white men.” What a distasteful opening of an otherwise interesting article. As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven down people’s throats... No, most simply…

> As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven down people’s throats... No, but patriarchal and racial structures in society have historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male. Adam Neely has a good video on how the term "music theory" here in the West is essentially just "the harmonic style of 18th century European musicians" [1]. It's worth a watch if you'…

>patriarchal and racial structures in society have historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male

This is plain false. Those non-white and non-male artists who have reached sophistication and virtuosity comparable to Mozart and Beethoven were and are still acclaimed. Don't try to shove a narrative where there isn't one.

Also, this doesn't add anything to the discussion about why audiences prefer dead (!) white (!!) male (!!!) composers like Mozart and Beethoven over the works of early experimental electronic composers. The answer is simply because most people don't like listening weird noise.

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#62

Post by yongjik »

Gunax wrote: post #44
gumby wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an excellent example because Star Trek was itself so very progressive for its time. Yet despite that may plot lines still centered around very rigid sexist assumptions.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but I am surprised how many TNG episodes have 'alien species that is thinly veiled stand-in for some human race'. And this is a show that would have been woke for it's time. [1] https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Up_The_Long_Ladder_(epi... [2] https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Code_of_Honor_(episode)

Tangent on a tangent, but my daughter was recently binge-watching The Clone Wars animated series and at one point I had to ask: "So they have Space Asians there?"

Well, they already have Space Knights, Space Gunmen, and Space Witches, so why not.

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#63

Post by throwaway1090 »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #61
DavidVoid wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven down people’s throats... No, but patriarchal and racial structures in society have historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male. Adam Neely has a good video on how the term "music theory" here in the West is essentially just "the harmonic style of 18th century European musicians" [1]. It's worth a watch if you'…

>patriarchal and racial structures in society have historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male This is plain false. Those non-white and non-male artists who have reached sophistication and virtuosity comparable to Mozart and Beethoven were and are still acclaimed. Don't try to shove a narrative where there isn't one. Also, this doesn't add anything to the discussion about why audiences prefer dead (!)…

Check what gary_0 posted above on Maria Anna Mozart.

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#64

Post by fuzzfactor »

alamortsubite wrote: post #24

The highly-entertaining 1993 documentary "Theremin: An Electronic Odyssey" [1] devotes much attention to Clara Rockmore [2], an incredible figure I'm glad to see is a subject of this new film. I think it's fair to say Leon Theremin wouldn't have made it far without her. 1: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108323 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Rockmore

On Youtube there is Sue Bob Jackson at 1:49:40 live on her theremin in 2001 where she brings on a guest artist and becomes a Viking for a bit:

https://ww.youtube.com/watch?v=nd517b80srQ

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#65

Post by wpietri »

meowkit wrote: post #55
gumby wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish that too, and eventually we will get there. But there is a lot of progress and catching up before we get there. Nowadays when I watch films or read books from the 50s, 60s, and 70s the depth of casual sexism is quite shocking. So that shows some progress. But still there’s a tremendous amount of inequality to be overcome.

I agree with the sentiment, but what I never see discussed is what the benchmarks are for reaching the proclaimed “equality”. Often times it seems we are overshooting with attempts to create better societies - or worse shooting off in the wrong direction.

It seems that to whom? To you? To a group? If so, who? And what data lets you speak for them?

As they say, "When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression". So if you're in a previously favored category, it's only natural that the loss of that boost might seem like overshooting.

The real test, of course, is objective metrics. Looking at who's in Congress or who's running Fortune 500 companies, it seems like we're a fair ways from overshooting. (If you have data otherwise, please do share.)

But if we do overshoot, so what? Overshooting is common in all sorts of systems as they self-correct. The important thing to me seems to be reducing the magnitude of the swings as we converge on a new norm. Given that the previously baseline is a couple millennia of violent gender oppression, seems like we're certain to do better than that.

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#66

Post by wpietri »

allturtles wrote: post #30
norswap wrote: post #15

I wish we could appreciate women's talents without feeling forced to prefix the whole thing with a blob about restoring them to their righteous place on the pantheon of whatever.

I particularly don't get the "dead" part about complaining about "dead white men." We all end up dead, one way or another. It will happen to the sisters with transistors, too.

I think his point is pretty clear in that paragraph: "Music is haunted by the specters of Beethoven and Mozart, even Elvis and John Lennon, with the canon being built around these names that we are told deserve not just celebrating but worshipping. These old, dead white men." The problem is the dead overshadowing the living.

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#67

Post by wpietri »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #61
DavidVoid wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven down people’s throats... No, but patriarchal and racial structures in society have historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male. Adam Neely has a good video on how the term "music theory" here in the West is essentially just "the harmonic style of 18th century European musicians" [1]. It's worth a watch if you'…

>patriarchal and racial structures in society have historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male This is plain false. Those non-white and non-male artists who have reached sophistication and virtuosity comparable to Mozart and Beethoven were and are still acclaimed. Don't try to shove a narrative where there isn't one. Also, this doesn't add anything to the discussion about why audiences prefer dead (!)…

Your theory is that although we have clear historical evidence of centuries and centuries of broad societal oppression based on gender and race, that there was some countervailing force in art that perfectly balanced that out such that the playing field for art was entirely level?

Please do explain what that force was. In detail. With examples. Because that sounds entirely implausible to me.

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#68

Post by allturtles »

wpietri wrote: post #66
allturtles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I particularly don't get the "dead" part about complaining about "dead white men." We all end up dead, one way or another. It will happen to the sisters with transistors, too.

I think his point is pretty clear in that paragraph: "Music is haunted by the specters of Beethoven and Mozart, even Elvis and John Lennon, with the canon being built around these names that we are told deserve not just celebrating but worshipping. These old, dead white men." The problem is the dead overshadowing the living.

Isn't that the very point of a canon? It takes time for a society to ratify the quality of a cultural artifact, to sift through the chaff and decide on what and who the 'greats' are. Invariably, at any given point in time, most of them are dead.

It's possible that in the long run, people will consider Clara Rockmore, Delia Derbyshire, etc. to rank with Beethoven, Mozart, etc. It doesn't seem likely, though. I don't think Elvis will rank either, or even does now - does anyone consider Elvis a great musician?

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#69

Post by antonvs »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #31

“Music is haunted by the specters of Beethoven and Mozart, even Elvis and John Lennon, with the canon being built around these names that we are told deserve not just celebrating but worshipping. These old, dead white men.” What a distasteful opening of an otherwise interesting article. As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven down people’s throats... No, most simply…

> there’s a reason why the former enjoyed wide acclaim throughout the eras

That reason is in no small part the propagation of taste via culture.

> As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven down people’s throats...

An unsubtle description perhaps, but it does get at the idea of how cultures promote certain work at the expense of others. Yes, there's certainly "forcing down the throat" that occurs, via peer pressure, education, public promotion, and so on, but there's also the suppression of contributions that don't fit the society's constraints.

Name some of the great female composers of Beethoven and Mozart's era. I'll wait.

You now either have to take the position that "women just aren't that good at music," or you have to acknowledge that something was going on at that time - something that still happens today. That something is strongly hinted at by the comment someone else posted about Maria Anna Mozart, who was "forbidden from performing once she reached marriageable age."

In that context, your denial of obvious facts starts to seem monstrous.

> Framing their work in the context of contemporary American identity politics is very cheap journalism, and distasteful.

The US didn't invent the patriarchy, it inherited it directly from the European societies that settled the US, and Beethoven and Mozart's society was a big part of that. Beethoven was born 6 years before the Declaration of Independence; Mozart 20 years before; and Germans were one of the biggest groups to settle the US.

Your adulation of those musicians is a direct consequence of your embedding in a cultural context that you seem blissfully unaware of. The reason you like them is because you are directly descended, a mere 10 generations back, from peers of those musicians. You were brought up in a culture that privileged their work, and have absorbed that indoctrination uncritically.

One of the other pieces of indoctrination you've absorbed is apparently that the culture didn't, in fact, systematically and unfairly suppress the voices and capabilities of women, which is why you haven't replied to the comment about Maria Anna - you can't afford to acknowledge it, since you can't refute it, and it eats at the foundation of your indoctrinated beliefs.

Attitudes like yours hold back the development of a more equitable society. You should rethink them.

Re: Sisters with Transistors

#70

Post by teddyh »

deeblering4 wrote: post #33
teddyh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence begets violence, and likewise, discrimination begets reverse discrimination. Someone must step up and end the cycle.

Are you proposing that we all just pretend women were never oppressed and move on with our lives? That would essentially be gaslighting half of earths population. The cycle will end by itself in time through a series of under-corrections, but it’s not going to happen overnight. And I’m sorry to say that comments like yours that undermine attribution of women are not part of the solution.

> Are you proposing that we all just pretend

No.

> The cycle will end by itself in time through a series of under-corrections, but it’s not going to happen overnight.

Perhaps, but that’s not what the reality is at the moment. At the moment, there are what amounts to large corrective movements, which some argue to be over-corrective, and others who argue that anyone who is against any large amount of correction must be arguing against any correction at all.

> comments like yours that undermine attribution of women

Clearly you are part of the last of the aforementions groups.

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