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Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

nj.com

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Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#141

Post by monoideism »

monocasa wrote: post #136
monoideism wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you at least look into the study methodology before answering with such certainty? Since Pew Research uses the same questions, there's no shifting of the "Overton Window" (I'm well aware of the concept). So this poll measures both absolute and relative movement. I actually agree that there has been some shifting to the right of the Overton Window in fiscal and economic issues only as the Democratic Party ha…

I've read the entire study many times. Perhaps you can point out how explicitly how they adjust for shifts of how definitions like "consistently liberal" shift over time? Even the fact that "liberal" means left now is a function of how far to the right the democrats have gone, the Third Way Democrats having cemented their hold on the party. Additionally being "fiscally right wing" is an overall right wing position. B…

> Perhaps you can point out how explicitly how they adjust for shifts of how definitions like "consistently liberal" shift over time?

Once again, the questions are just policy questions. They don't mention anything about "liberal" or "conservative". They ask policy questions, which is exactly what you seem to have wanted initially. If you've read the study methodology, then you should be aware of exactly what the survey respondants are asked.

> Additionally being "fiscally right wing" is an overall right wing position

If you believe that, then the coming years are going to be a big surprise to you. The GOP of Reagan is on its way out. People like Hawley, who are happy to work with Bernie Sanders on certain fiscal policies, are on their way in. You may well still hate them because they are populists, but they have a different outlook on multinational corporations and the ultrawealthy than the old GOP.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#142

Post by mulmen »

OJFord wrote: post #106
refenestrator wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but: 1) Selling bootleg booze has health/quality risks that selling weed doesn't. You don't see crackdowns on people selling other plants without a license. 2) Legalizing possession and then only giving licenses to well-connected people who are excellent at getting paperwork through the system is, well, a lot better than nothing but doesn't really solve the whole problem.

Why does the business of selling cannabis need to be so accessible? If someone wants to do it, they can put in the work to 'get the paperwork through the system'; if they just want it to be available to them and their friends, well, now it is, because someone else has put in that work. I don't really see the issue? (But then, I'm glad to live in a country that hasn't legalised it, so what do I know.)

The issue is that legalization is a new development and the effects of asymmetric enforcement continue to disadvantage racial groups.

Drug laws were not created in a vacuum. They are just one step on a long journey of racially motivated oppression.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#143

Post by throwawayboise »

stadium wrote: post #84
nerdponx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with all this data is that it doesn't inform us of who is actually committing crimes . If we are overly fixated on racism by the police and confuse correlation with causation, we might entirely miss other structural/systemic factors that might be leading (or forcing) black people to criminal behavior more often than white people. I am aware of some research that tries to estimate propensity to actually co…

The police don't get to decide who committed a crime, the judicial system does. Yours is the same argument that George Floyd deserved what he got because he was a criminal. Being arrested or frisked by police does not a criminal make. Conviction does. It's a duck.

The police do get to decide on probable cause that a crime has been committed. That's not enough for punishment, but it is enough for arrest and investigation.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#144

Post by dragonwriter »

randomopining wrote: post #132

Yeah so “defund the police!” Should actually be “fund better police training!” Of course the AOC-type libs are utterly wrong. Biden is right.

> Yeah so “defund the police!” Should actually be “fund better police training!”

Most people saying the former would support it being accompanied by the latter, however, they will note that that the past several decades have involved several police reform movements that have driven additional net funding to police at the expense of other local services, contributing to the expansion of police roles. “Defund the police” is about driving down the proportion of local funding consumed by paramilitary law enforcement and, along with it, the scope of responsibility. Increasing the share of those remaining resoueces devoted to training, and even moreso the quality of that training in respect to the remaining role of the paramilitary law enforcement services, is not something “defund" activists oppose, just something that they see as inadequate and not the first priority.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#145

Post by kar5pt »

stadium wrote: post #84
nerdponx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with all this data is that it doesn't inform us of who is actually committing crimes . If we are overly fixated on racism by the police and confuse correlation with causation, we might entirely miss other structural/systemic factors that might be leading (or forcing) black people to criminal behavior more often than white people. I am aware of some research that tries to estimate propensity to actually co…

The police don't get to decide who committed a crime, the judicial system does. Yours is the same argument that George Floyd deserved what he got because he was a criminal. Being arrested or frisked by police does not a criminal make. Conviction does. It's a duck.

It seems like a completely different argument to me. He's not arguing that committing crimes (or being involved in events that may be legally deemed crimes after the fact) means that someone _deserves_ to have force used on them. He's saying that it makes sense that police would be more likely to use force against people who are more frequently involved in said events.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#146

Post by runako »

nerdponx wrote: post #32
elil17 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arresting at a hire rate means in comparison to the demographics of the city. In 2020, 50% of Newark residents were Black but 80% of arrests were of Black people. 80% of victims of police use of force were Black. A third of the city is white but only 4% of police use of force victims are white. [1] [1]: https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/07/newark-must-do-more-to-st...

The problem with all this data is that it doesn't inform us of who is actually committing crimes . If we are overly fixated on racism by the police and confuse correlation with causation, we might entirely miss other structural/systemic factors that might be leading (or forcing) black people to criminal behavior more often than white people. I am aware of some research that tries to estimate propensity to actually co…

> The problem with all this data is that it doesn't inform us of who is actually committing crimes.

Arrest records do not provide this data either. If an area or activity is policed at a lower rate, it will look like fewer crimes are committed there.

Example: there have been public "420" festivals all over the country dating back to well before the recent legalizations. These were not accompanied by mass arrests, despite mass public lawbreaking. Drugs and underage drinking are endemic on college campuses. Somehow police are unable to arrest these lawbreakers. If you prefer finance, what percentage of financial fraud do you believe results in an arrest? Or consider the discretion allowed to police in deciding when to arrest someone for riding an unlicensed bicycle. There are many other examples of less-policed spaces.

Arrest records frequently tell you more about who is permitted to break laws than the number of crimes committed somewhere.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#147

Post by bingbong70 »

lolinder wrote: post #66
commentingbadly wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a disgusting and false comment https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/29/fac... - Rates of white-on-white and Black-on-Black homicide are similar, at around 80% and 90% - Rates of Black-on-white and white-on-Black homicide also within 8 points - Police kill Black people at disproportionate rates

Those stats don't say what you think they say. Those show that white people are no more likely to kill black people than black people are to kill white people. They do not say that black people are no more likely to kill someone .

Large % of black Americans don't trust the criminal justice system and police, I expect this leads to more extrajudicial crime fighting carried out by the community that skews assault/murder rates.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#148

Post by stouset »

bitexploder wrote: post #129
nobodyandproud wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judo (the mother of bjj) is seeing a revival in police circles. It’s good to see grappling arts make a comeback, as there are plenty of non-lethal ways to make someone submit. Edit: For cases where the police officer already is in control.

I think American wrestling and or BJJ are much more practical than Judo as a martial art for police, but Judo is better than nothing. Judo is good for getting things to the ground, but the ground system of Judo is inadequate for many situations. (I’ve trained Judo and with many judokas, even advanced ones just aren’t very good on the ground without some other ground fighting system). Regardless it’s a big step in the…

As a fellow judoka, I’d agree.

It’s unfortunate because there are some aspects that could make judo a better groundfighting base than BJJ for this type of situation. When a judo match goes to the ground, the competitors must be clearly making progress toward a pin or submission or the referee stands them up. This favors more explosive movements (resolving a situation quickly) over a slow positional game from your back.

Of course, a skilled BJJ practitioner could also make quick work of an untrained opponent. But judo’s focus on quickly establishing a dominant position has some advantages.

Unfortunately this ruleset also enables competitors to “turtle up” in a defensive position on all fours. It’s hard for your opponent to quickly get a submission or a pin from this position, so the fight will quickly be reset by the referee. This has led to a lot of even competitive judoka having very weak ground game, as they can get by for the most part by assuming this position. Obviously that’s not going to be very effective in a real-world situation.

BJJ has its flaws for this sort of thing too. At least in the gyms I’ve trained in, there was very little focus on throwing. So once a fight is on the ground someone with a BJJ background will excel. But against a resisting opponent, they don’t have nearly the tools that a judoka has to bring things there.

In the end I think either one will give you a massive leg up, but it’s important to keep in mind why you’re training in the first place and understand the bad real-world habits that their respective rulesets can encourage when taken too seriously for the sake of competition.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#149

Post by ggreer »

tootie wrote: post #15
atonse wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably but for an extreme example, look at what’s happened in Portland.

Probably not causation. Crime rates are up nationwide. NYC is seeing a spike too and we've got the most expensive police force in the world. More likely the pandemic is to blame.

In 2016, Portland had 20 murders. In 2020 they had 55 murders (50 of which happened in June or later). This year they’re on track to break 100. Crime has gone up in the nation, but not by a factor of five. Portland’s problems are very much due to Portland’s policies.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#150

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

jchook wrote: post #40

Significant to note that Newark Police officers did not wear body cameras until early 2020. It seems like part of the same “decree” but I didn’t see the article mention it. I recall a similar stat from CA where body cameras reduced complaints by 80%. Also it looks like Merrick Garland reversed Jeff Sessions’ limitations on consent decree.

Anecdotal counter-argument: police have been filmed planting evidence, assaulting suspects, on their own body cameras. It may be useful at catching them, but not necessarily a deterrent
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