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The Girl in the Kent State Photo

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Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#51

Post by mikem170 »

BobbyJo wrote: post #23
happytoexplain wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

I think things like that are more a result of how information gets disseminated, and how it's framed, than bloodthirst. I'm sure if you took the people that hung that banner and made them hold hand with one of the students as they died, their enthusiasm would quickly fade. The word 'death' is just an abstraction that feels small when you're young, healthy, and haven't had to watch it happen. It's only easy to look at…

> I'm sure if you took the people that hung that banner and made them hold hand with one of the students as they died, their enthusiasm would quickly fade.

Maybe this has a tendency to happen in larger group-think situations. Those bloodthirsty individuals weren't at Kent State, they didn't experience any of this first hand, but they were part of a group that was, on some level, afraid of the students, and hated what they represented. They lashed out based on group-think.

I blame the scale of our politics for this. The federal government should not be able to start a war without a referendum and a super-majority. Instead of real democracy and "power to the people" everything is becoming a federal issue, covered by a couple dozen national media companies, with everyone in a country of 330 million people lining up behind a thousand career politicians and talking heads, funded by the rich and multinational corporations. So much group-think. No less in the 1960s, I assume.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#52

Post by pmarreck »

happytoexplain wrote: post #10
pmoriarty wrote: post #9

"Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor's office, blaming "dirty hippies," "longhairs" and "outside agitators" for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, "At least we got four of them." Nixon issued a statement saying that the students' actions had invited the tra…

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

> America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today.

There's more to unpack here (such as anonymity being somehow an enabler of aggression) but hey... Let's arm everyone and see what happens!

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#53

Post by pmarreck »

mmcgaha wrote: post #37
a4isms wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud your optimism and boundless faith in humanity. But as a POC, I point out that America has a long tradition of taking children to witness lynchings, and the children would cheer. Or to beat foxes to death with sticks. I don't think it’s as simple as “people don’t have emppathy when death is abstract and indirect.” Lots of people don’t have empathy when they’re socially conditioned to believe a certain type o…

Cruelty is a human trait that is not bound by nationality, race, nor religion. I get the desire to slice up the pie of humanity and point to the piece called America; it gives us hope that maybe the problem can be solved. No human cruelty will never go away. It may wax and wane, but it will always be in our nature.

> No human cruelty will never go away. It may wax and wane, but it will always be in our nature.

I'm optimistic that it will decrease over time, because frankly it has been, if you look at history. I mean, I remember reading up on the "bog bodies" and they figured out that pretty much the whole lot of them died quite brutal deaths.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#54

Post by pmarreck »

throw0101a wrote: post #38
happytoexplain wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

Or they view justice differently: > Justice: The world may be a difficult place to live, but it is basically just; people usually get what they deserve. The difficulties in one's life serve as a test to sort the deserving from the undeserving. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_(book)

Wow. Just wow.

I don't live in a world where killing 4 students simply for standing around while a protest was going on to be just, even factoring in property damage, but you do you

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#55

Post by dragonwriter »

PostOnce wrote: post #50
dragonwriter wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To play the other half of this argument: America engaged in slavery, but also fought its bloodiest war to end it It was only “its bloodiest war” because a sizable fraction of the country was fighting to protect slavery . Much of the rest of the world that had chattel slavery ended it without similarly bloody wars—and generally sooner. The fierce defense of chattel slavery in the US that produced its bloodiest war i…

It would have been bloodless had the Union just said "okay let's have slavery." But they didn't do that. They laid down their lives instead. Like I said before, picking out only the things we dislike and overlooking positives isn't productive or honest to ourselves.

> It would have been bloodless had the Union just said "okay let's have slavery."

No, because that’s what the Union said—that preserving the Union was more important than abolition. The South declared secession and attacked federal facilities anyway.

The South’s overweaning fear of the distant future possibility of abolition backfired and accelerated it.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#56

Post by andrewl »

hiisukun wrote: post #2

I cannot read this article without subscribing, and the title gives very little information. To save others a click: In 1970, an image of a dead protester immediately became iconic. But what happened to the 14-year-old kneeling next to him?

It's a story about the life course of Mary Ann Vecchio, the woman in the most famous photo from the day in 1970 when the National Guard killed four students at Kent State:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

I've known the photo for decades, but I did not know the woman in front of the body was only 14, and I knew nothing of her life before or after the shootings. The photo was always a frozen moment for me.

Neil Young's song Ohio (with the famous refrain “four dead in Ohio”) is about that day.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#57

Post by pmarreck »

INTPenis wrote: post #5
hiisukun wrote: post #2

I cannot read this article without subscribing, and the title gives very little information. To save others a click: In 1970, an image of a dead protester immediately became iconic. But what happened to the 14-year-old kneeling next to him?

I can't read it either but some googling says it was Mary Ann Veccio. So now you can research her yourself without paying the Post.

It is an excellently-written piece that would definitely outdo Wikipedia entries on her.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#58

Post by havernator »

lisper wrote: post #35
lazulicurio wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is true for certain denominations, it is most definitely not universal[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell

I'm an atheist so I don't really have a dog in this particular fight, but Jesus was pretty clear about this: Mark16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It’s a bit more subtle than that, which is why it’s tricky quoting verses out of context. The question arises in this one “who’s ‘he’”? The previous verse has an answer:

> 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

So “he” is someone who’s been exposed to the gospel.

On this basis, many Christians believe that those who’ve not been exposed to the gospel (the degree of exposure that counts seems a point of disagreement) may still go to heaven.

Notably, it’s not 100% clear (here, anyway) this doesn’t just mean those to whom Jesus’ direct disciples preach. It also promises they’ll be accompanied by a whole mess o’ very clear miracles wherever they go, which I’m pretty sure isn’t the case these days (or then, but you know what I mean). The expectations for those who are presented with proof in the form of Jesus-wizards, and those who chat with a preacher in line at Wal-Mart, might reasonably be very different.

(Not a believer, for the record)

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#59

Post by a4isms »

mmcgaha wrote: post #37
a4isms wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud your optimism and boundless faith in humanity. But as a POC, I point out that America has a long tradition of taking children to witness lynchings, and the children would cheer. Or to beat foxes to death with sticks. I don't think it’s as simple as “people don’t have emppathy when death is abstract and indirect.” Lots of people don’t have empathy when they’re socially conditioned to believe a certain type o…

Cruelty is a human trait that is not bound by nationality, race, nor religion. I get the desire to slice up the pie of humanity and point to the piece called America; it gives us hope that maybe the problem can be solved. No human cruelty will never go away. It may wax and wane, but it will always be in our nature.

Cruelty may not be bound by time and space, but historically, cruelty has been “unevenly distributed.”

If we were sitting side-by-side in the Warsaw Ghetto, I might agree with you intellectually, but nevertheless my immediate concern would be for the localized cruelty.

I very much disagree that pointing out a particularly virulent strain of cruelty is motivated by the desire to hope that the problem can be solved permanently.

When you’re one of the people with a target on your back, your immediate concern is with the cruelty you are threatened with and/or experiencing.

Under those circumstances, your motivation is to “think globally, but act locally.”

It would be the same dynamic if, for example, I was a woman experiencing misogyny on some social media site. True, misogyny is in a lot of places and has been present for a very long time.

But nevertheless, my immediate concern would be reducing it in the place where I’m experiencing it. If I called someone out for their behaviour, would I accept “Well, lots of people are misogynists, always have been, always will be, so why are you pointing at me” as an answer?

I think not.

The more abstract you make a thing, the harder it is to alleviate your suffering from a thing. Which is exactly why people who don’t want to fix a problem always try to make it as abstract and general as possible.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#60

Post by msteffen »

space_fountain wrote: post #46
pmoriarty wrote: post #9

"Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor's office, blaming "dirty hippies," "longhairs" and "outside agitators" for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, "At least we got four of them." Nixon issued a statement saying that the students' actions had invited the tra…

Not at all making it ok, but in addition to burning down the rtc building, the protesters ransacked downtown. Lots of broken glass etc. Also a lot of the protesters were from outside Kent (not that that means they deserved to die)

I knew about the vandalism but not in detail, so I'm glad someone brought it up.

My opinion, fwiw: I think people really want to believe that collective punishment works, but it really doesn't. People on the right who were excited about the violence at the time wanted the deaths to teach the vandals a lesson. People on the left chanting "shoot him with his own gun" wanted to teach sadists within law enforcement a lesson. But this woman's first exposure to Vietnam war politics was this specific protest, so how is shooting a student in front of her supposed to prevent vandalism? Maybe the violence was born out of impotent rage? Everybody had people on the other side they disagreed with and no way to reach them or change their mind.

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