The Girl in the Kent State Photo • Hacker News Board

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#21

Post by throwaway1090 » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

adamcstephens wrote: post #17

happytoexplain wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

As long as we ignore the violent things done by our country for the past few hundred years, it will continue to poison our society. Reparations for slavery could be one approach, but it doesn’t account for enough of the pain we’ve caused. Genocide, slavery, civil war, imperial conquest, overthrowing democracies in favor of repressive regimes, to today’s bombing of people in other countries with drones. We don’t discu…

Many of these are addressed in the book 'Understanding Power' by Noam Chomsky. It's very readable. It's got hefty footnotes that are available as pdf [1].

Another book is 'How to Hide an Empire' by Daniel Immerwahr.

[1] http://understandingpower.org/

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#22

Post by supernovae » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #19

lazulicurio wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I think that this attitude is at the core of issues such as mass shootings and police violence. That I think it's largely cultural is also why I'm not convinced that gun restrictions will be super-effective at combating it. I think that all humans experience some measure of schadenfreude at seeing people they dislike get a comeuppance, but I don't think that enjoying physical retribution is innate. I remember on…

> Christianity brought "turn the other cheek", but 2000 years later look where we are. I've no interest in a debate on religion, but Christianity is the religion that brought "bad people burn in hell for eternity".

Since they're borne to sin, they can do whatever they want.. God will forgive them

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#23

Post by BobbyJo » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #10

pmoriarty wrote: post #9

"Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor's office, blaming "dirty hippies," "longhairs" and "outside agitators" for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, "At least we got four of them." Nixon issued a statement saying that the students' actions had invited the tra…

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

I think things like that are more a result of how information gets disseminated, and how it's framed, than bloodthirst. I'm sure if you took the people that hung that banner and made them hold hand with one of the students as they died, their enthusiasm would quickly fade. The word 'death' is just an abstraction that feels small when you're young, healthy, and haven't had to watch it happen. It's only easy to look at it like a point on a scoreboard when you don't know anything about it.

I think a lot of the divisiveness is a result of the same effect. It's easy to dismiss other people's perspective and think they are 'just stupid or malicious' when you don't know them. We need to get back to assuming the people that disagree with us are potentially as smart as we are, but with different values or information.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#24

Post by klmadfejno » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

supernovae wrote: post #22

klmadfejno wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Christianity brought "turn the other cheek", but 2000 years later look where we are. I've no interest in a debate on religion, but Christianity is the religion that brought "bad people burn in hell for eternity".

Since they're borne to sin, they can do whatever they want.. God will forgive them

Genuine question. Does Christian god forgive everyone? Or only the repentant? Or only the baptized-believer-repentent?

If the answer to the first question isn't yes, can you still go to hell with god's forgiveness?

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#25

Post by cochne » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #10

pmoriarty wrote: post #9

"Back in Kent, Ohio, local business owners ran an ad thanking the National Guard. Mail poured in to the mayor's office, blaming "dirty hippies," "longhairs" and "outside agitators" for the violence. Some Kent residents raised four fingers when they passed each other in the street, a silent signal that meant, "At least we got four of them." Nixon issued a statement saying that the students' actions had invited the tra…

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

Is there any source for that? I tried searching but the first result is this comment!

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#26

Post by a4isms » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #23

happytoexplain wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

I think things like that are more a result of how information gets disseminated, and how it's framed, than bloodthirst. I'm sure if you took the people that hung that banner and made them hold hand with one of the students as they died, their enthusiasm would quickly fade. The word 'death' is just an abstraction that feels small when you're young, healthy, and haven't had to watch it happen. It's only easy to look at…

I applaud your optimism and boundless faith in humanity.

But as a POC, I point out that America has a long tradition of taking children to witness lynchings, and the children would cheer. Or to beat foxes to death with sticks.

I don't think it’s as simple as “people don’t have emppathy when death is abstract and indirect.” Lots of people don’t have empathy when they’re socially conditioned to believe a certain type of person is a subhuman.

Today, we have police suffocating citizens and murdering adolescents, and there’s a certain type of person who cheers this, provided the victims are member sof a class deemed “subhuman."

I do not believe for a moment that witnessing the murders would change their minds, because even as video circulates showing the murder happening, they continue to cheer.

---

I also don’t think we can conflate this with arguments about “people you disagree with.” We’re not talking about people sitting down and debating free love or long hair.

We’re talking about people who believe that other people are literally a disease infecting society that should be exterminated as quickly as possible, preferably in such a way that it sends a message to others.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#27

Post by fortran77 » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #24

supernovae wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since they're borne to sin, they can do whatever they want.. God will forgive them

Genuine question. Does Christian god forgive everyone? Or only the repentant? Or only the baptized-believer-repentent? If the answer to the first question isn't yes, can you still go to hell with god's forgiveness?

Christians hold that non-believers will spend eternity in a hell.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#28

Post by j4yav » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #23

happytoexplain wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

I think things like that are more a result of how information gets disseminated, and how it's framed, than bloodthirst. I'm sure if you took the people that hung that banner and made them hold hand with one of the students as they died, their enthusiasm would quickly fade. The word 'death' is just an abstraction that feels small when you're young, healthy, and haven't had to watch it happen. It's only easy to look at…

Maybe, but also celebrating tallies of enemies killed sends a fairly clear message to the kinds of folks on your side who might actually be up for that sort of thing what the goal might be.

Everyone may then be shocked when someone actually goes and does it, but it seems to me like a predictable result of dehumanizing your rivals rather than just what naturally happens when smart people with different values and information disagree with each other.

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#29

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #23

happytoexplain wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The day after the shooting, a banner was hung in the West Point cafeteria stating, "Us: 4, Them: 0". America has a non-negligible percent of population who I can only describe as "bloodthirsty for no good reason". They've been here a long time, and remain here today. When we try to discuss the problem, the noise from political side-taking usually overtakes the conversation.

I think things like that are more a result of how information gets disseminated, and how it's framed, than bloodthirst. I'm sure if you took the people that hung that banner and made them hold hand with one of the students as they died, their enthusiasm would quickly fade. The word 'death' is just an abstraction that feels small when you're young, healthy, and haven't had to watch it happen. It's only easy to look at…

[deleted]

Re: The Girl in the Kent State Photo

#30

Post by lazulicurio » Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #19

lazulicurio wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW I think that this attitude is at the core of issues such as mass shootings and police violence. That I think it's largely cultural is also why I'm not convinced that gun restrictions will be super-effective at combating it. I think that all humans experience some measure of schadenfreude at seeing people they dislike get a comeuppance, but I don't think that enjoying physical retribution is innate. I remember on…

> Christianity brought "turn the other cheek", but 2000 years later look where we are. I've no interest in a debate on religion, but Christianity is the religion that brought "bad people burn in hell for eternity".

My point wasn't so much that Christianity is a solution, but rather that despite how widespread Christianity became since its founding, one of it's core messages hasn't culturally sunk in.