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Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

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Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#51

Interesting take from the Andy Warhol Foundation. Warhol could have drawn that from memory. He used an impression he had of existing source material (the photo) and changed it. He didn't copy it and then add on to it. It's an original work of art that didn't exist before. Copying code. That's seems more duplication for strictly the original intended purpose.

Warhol didn't even physically do the screen printing himself. He had assistants do it. The screen prints are made directly from the photo. It's a special type of photo sensitive paper. You do it in the darkroom.

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#52

Why isn't it allowed to say that images of Prince were part of the environment, and the Warhol work simply documents or depicts that which was in the environment for all to see and which all experienced? It is both documentary and impression. To me, (in a fantasy, perhaps incompletely considered "sane" world) once you broadcast or publicize something, you really waive all right to continue controlling it. If you want…

This is a nice sort of post capital star trek thought, but the current reality is that this environment of yours us a mixed commercial, community and personal space. While you'd have to be fairly thick to not consider warhol's work fair use, there are an endless amount of creative and technical pursuits that without protection would leave the creators destitute. Just take one look at open source - an outright ocean of creative technical work used commercially and personally, and the avergae funding there is not just zero, but negative by way of dev time and material goods required to produce it. And that's probably the worlds most conscious space in terms of free use and shared contributions and so on.

Declaring all sharing discussion just doesn't cut it.

I would _like_ if we were in a place we could have this environment/discussion idea, but we're not even close.

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#54

Why isn't it allowed to say that images of Prince were part of the environment, and the Warhol work simply documents or depicts that which was in the environment for all to see and which all experienced? It is both documentary and impression. To me, (in a fantasy, perhaps incompletely considered "sane" world) once you broadcast or publicize something, you really waive all right to continue controlling it. If you want…

Isn't that just a fancy way of saying "copyright shouldn't exist" ?

Maybe.

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#55

Interesting take from the Andy Warhol Foundation. Warhol could have drawn that from memory. He used an impression he had of existing source material (the photo) and changed it. He didn't copy it and then add on to it. It's an original work of art that didn't exist before. Copying code. That's seems more duplication for strictly the original intended purpose.

How I see it: Copying an API is copying technical aspects for interoperability reasons. Copyright covers creative aspects, not technical aspects. If the API is covered by patents then the reproduction of technical aspects will be tortuous.

The important thing with copyright is whether you copied, not how you copied. So copying a work by looking at it and then duplicating it is still creating a derivative -- or could be of you reproduce a substantial part of the creative work.

Now, AWF's position seems tenable to me as there are apects of the photo that are not the _creative_ input of the photographer; namely the likeness of the subject. Duplication of those aspects is akin to duplication of the API: is duplication of apects that are not the creative work of the creator of the first work (in one case because those aspects are technical, in the other case because those aspects are just the features of a person's face [the photographer didn't creatively produce those features, unless they're a plastic surgeon!]).

Now, Warhol did copy. Unlike Google he didn't need to copy that particular work for interoperability reasons. To me the fact that any photo would have embodied the subject's features equally well means Warhol had no need to copy this one. That makes AWF's case distinct from Google v.

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#56

The idea that someone who's been dead for thirty-four years and whose closest living relative is a grand-niece should have any legal standing in any regard is astoundingly perverse.

It's perverse that property ownership changes hands when owners die? What you you propose instead? Allow nieces but not grand-nieces to own inherited copyrights? Copyright expires 33 years after death?

25 years seems a reasonable length of time for your dependents to grow up. Copyright is not property. Copyright is the government agreeing to arrest people for saying and doing the same things you said and did.

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#57

From the recent supreme court decision on oracle/google: > "those 11,500 lines, however, are only 0.4 percent of the entire API at issue, which consists of 2.85 million total lines. In considering "the amount and substantiality of the portion used" in this case, the 11,500 lines of code should be viewed as one small part of the considerably greater whole... Andy Warhol museum's lawyers are making a PR play maybe. I d…

Stupid hypothetical: If I created and distributed a 15 hour long song, in which I included a 3.6 minute (corresponding to 0.04% of the whole track) long song by The Beatles, would I be acting illegally? Is my case helped if the Beatles song fits in very well with the rest of the piece such that my work has more artistic value, to the point where no reasonable person would say it's intended as infringement?

You have the numbers reversed -- it's not that the Beatles is only 0.04% of your piece, the analogy is if you only copied 0.04% of the Beatles piece. Google only copied 0.04% of Oracle's source code.

The test for "fair use" is not only based on portion of original used. It is a four part test, where the weighting of the four parts is not specified, it's subjective (as are some of the parts).

1. Purpose and character of the copy (which mainly ends up meaning commercial vs non-commercial) 2. nature of the copyrighted work (which often ends up being about how "original" it was) 3. amount copied 4. effect on the market

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#58
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 15 hour long song, in which I included a 3.6 minute (corresponding to 0.04% of the whole track) long song by The Beatles This is posing it the wrong way around. The API is still a tiny subset of Java itself. If that 3.6 minutes is composed of any substantiate part of the Beatles' song, then you'll clearly have a problem. However, we actually do have case law in this particular case that we can refer to, specificall…

Huh, is Java the API or the implementation? The API is just a tiny amount of code, but it is an extremely valuable and difficult to create portion of the code base. A good implementation is important, but a good implementation can't make up for a bad API.

The Supreme Court too was confused on this, calling the entire code base "the API" in it's decision.

The [actual] API is 'the most valuable' part of the code, true, but it's also the part least protected by copyright. "Factual" descriptions/specifications are not in fact copyrighted, and the right to make a reverse-engineered clone of something was already established under US copyright. If you want to for instance make a specification and say that nobody can implement it without your permission -- you can't actually do that under copyright law (you might be able to under patent law, in some cases).

If I were the judge, I would have decided the case based on that -- in favor of Google. That it's "fair use" to copy the API in fact regardless of what % of the work it was, precisely because cloning a specification is fair use, copyright is meant to protect a specific fixed expression (in the case of software that means the implementation) it's not supposed to prevent you from creating a compatible clone in the first place, and never has been interpreted that way before this case, it was a mistake, and you don't even need to decide what % of the code "the API" (the headers/method signatures) are to get there.

But that's not actually what happened in the US courts, the judges involved seemed (to my reading) to be very confused about these things, and not to really understand what an "API" (as specification) was, or it's role in software. They decided on different grounds. To me making the law pretty incoherent and unclear at this point. So it goes.

Also, "how difficult to create" something is has very little to do with it's protection under copyright in US law, generally, whether you think it should or not, not how the law works.

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, is Java the API or the implementation? The API is just a tiny amount of code, but it is an extremely valuable and difficult to create portion of the code base. A good implementation is important, but a good implementation can't make up for a bad API.

The Supreme Court too was confused on this, calling the entire code base "the API" in it's decision. The [actual] API is 'the most valuable' part of the code, true, but it's also the part least protected by copyright . "Factual" descriptions/specifications are not in fact copyrighted, and the right to make a reverse-engineered clone of something was already established under US copyright. If you want to for instance…

(and this is also another reason this case is a very poor analogy for the Warhol case)

Re: Does Andy Warhol get same copyright treatment as Google code?

#60
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

API stands for application programming interface. Or didn't you know?

And the article says that the decision is not just about "the API" but about "the part of a copyrighted work that is recognizable to a wide public".

My reply was to the banal statement, "Maybe the API of a photograph or other piece of work is how you perceive or appreciate it"
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