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Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

wildtypefoods.com

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Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about WildType specifically, but it's not necessarily true that a salmon would need to die at any point in the process. Cells from a simple muscle biopsy could be cultured for this purpose, and a single biopsy may have the potential to produce a great deal of cells depending on the culture conditions. Or they may have developed an immortalized salmon cell line from an initial biopsy that they can prolife…

Plus as a lapsed-vegetarian I'm excited for lab grown meats even if there's an animal killed at some point in the process. It's impossible to choose a food without at least some harm. How many fish are killed by fertilizer runoff or damming for irrigation or whatever else is needed for all forms of agriculture? I'm going to assume a non-zero amount. So my view is the aim with all ethics-based dietary choices with the…

"All food choices are inherently non-zero in animal suffering and I don't think it's reasonable to hold lab grown meat to any higher standard. "

I know. I am not even a vegetarian. (I just have a big problem with the industrial food machine)

But if something is advertised as totally ethical, then yes, it should hold to a higher standard.

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#192
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, Beyond meat is one of the main meat substitutes making the rounds alongside Impossible burgers, right? If I'm not mixing up my names, what makes it a pump and dump?

There is debate about whether their technology is truly novel or whether it is just hype as soy protein based food manufacturing is not exactly new. Their most important technological achievement appears to be the artificial heme that they were able to source from a plant origin.

Don't think it counters your argument at all, but Beyond Meat is pea-protein based and contains no soy. The Impossible Burger is soy based.

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there hope for some kind of law for the price steadily decreasing over time as efficiencies improve, like Moore's law for computer chips or the exponential increase of solar efficiency?

The industry term for how prices drop as you make more of something is the "learning curve".

This is what capitalism is for.

Demand is high, supply is low. So prices are high. Only rich can accord.

Early creators make a lot of money.

Seeing the absurd profits, others will start supplying zombie sushi.

Demand is high, but now supply is high. Prices drop.

Now even common folk can enjoy zombie salmon sushi.

No laws needed, no government regulators needed to control prices.

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#194

My girlfriend and I have both spent years working in Sushi restaurants, and judging by those pictures alone, this "salmon" falls short of our fat requirement. I.e., it's kind of lean looking. We'd try it even at the high price point, but only if they come up with a fatty "salmon belly" edition.

I would have expected that lack of colouring as well for lab-grown salmon meat. Wild salmon meat gets its pink shade from eating krill/shrimp according to https://qz.com/358811/heres-why-your-farmed-salmon-has-color... Farmed salmon doesn't get enough krill/shrimp so the farmers have to add colouring to the farmed-salmon diet to get something close to the colour of wild salmon. see previous qz.com link. At least you…

I understand that wild salmon and farmed salmon are vastly different in appearance, texture, taste, smell, and provenance. Wild is considered to be the healthiest by a lot of measures. Yes, I even remember the "microplastics in your fish" submissions here on HN. I've mentioned that I've worked at sushi bars, including ones offering wild-caught salmon, even with pamphlets at the counters advertising the virtues of wild caught over farm-raised. You are preaching to the choir here. :)

>I would have expected that lack of colouring as well for lab-grown salmon meat.

In my comment, I wasn't referring to lack of coloring. I was referring to lack of fat. In fact, more fat means less color overall, and I'm saying that's desirable. Why? Because in my experience, wild-caught salmon sushi doesn't sell as well, even in areas where patrons have higher than average disposable income and higher than average health consciousness.

This is the same issue you often see with grass-fed steaks vs. industrial steaks. Grass-fed steak is healthier for you by a lot of measures, and depending on your pallette, tastes better. I love my grass-fed steak. (I love my BeyondMeat and Impossible Burgers too.) But many people find it to be too "gamy" and that includes the handful of chefs I know. They aren't putting it on menus. Most people are unaware that "grass-fed" beef is actually "finished" on grain instead of grass in order to offset what would be and even more gamy taste than they're getting.

Now, I'm not saying that wild-caught salmon is gamy, but it does have a distinct taste, and is comparatively lean. Farmed salmon is like that dramatically marbled USDA prime steak. It's practically a different fish, it's a less healthy fish, and arguably a less ethical fish too, but it's what people most often choose. Imagine two ham and cheese sandwiches, but only one has mayo. Even people who think they don't want fattening mayo still prefer the sandwich with mayo. There are more analogies I could give with butter or lard or beef tallow. I don't need to prove this, just look at Paula Deen.

Wildtype, as the name implies, and as the pictures indicate to the discerning eye, is trying to me more like wild-caught salmon. There's a niche for salmon sushi rolls, a sub-niche for wild-caught salmon rolls, and a sub-sub-niche for people who want a lab-grown version of that. The point of my earlier comment is that I would rather see them target a market that's one less level of niche deep, and that's the theoretical holy-grail marbled looking high-fat farmed-style "USDA Prime" kind of lab-grown salmon, which I would rather eat, and I expect most other customers would rather eat too.

I just want to finish this comment with a disclaimer that I in no way mean to belittle the pioneering folks behind Wildtype, nor disparage any health, environmental, or ethically focused enthusiasts here who are really excited about this. It is exciting and great that Wildtype and other companies like this are doing what they do. I feel that it's important to say it, because my previous comment seemed to have struck a nerve, and that wasn't my intention.

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there hope for some kind of law for the price steadily decreasing over time as efficiencies improve, like Moore's law for computer chips or the exponential increase of solar efficiency?

The industry term for how prices drop as you make more of something is the "learning curve".

You mean this:

https://www.bcg.com/publications/1968/business-unit-strategy...

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can build your own processor fab today for €100 000, you are definitely exploiting economies of scale. It is possible because of the massive existing industry that's created the market for, and driven down the price of parts and tools and supplies that you need to put it together and run it. E.g., that inexpensive off the shelf laser cutter you need to buy.

But that's not “how prices drop as you make more of something is the "learning curve"”.

OK, I see where we are misunderstanding each other. I was was trying to say that the decreased cost as you make more of something comes from economies of scale more than the learning curve.

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#197
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would not be murder to travel back in time and kill two cells that had the potential of becoming "me". I don't believe in some meta-physical soul or essence, so there is no "me" in the two cells. I exist today as a configuration of cells and experiences combined together. If you crushed an acorn did you destroy a tree? Absolutely not... you simply crushed an acorn.

> If you crushed an acorn did you destroy a tree? you destroyed something that had the potential of becoming a tree. Not really sure why you want to separate these out into two distinct entities. What would you consider an acron that sprouted a stem and a leaf? A tree or an acron? I think most people would see that an acron is still the same living being, just a different configuration of cells in a transitionary sta…

> you destroyed something that had the potential of becoming a tree. Not really sure why you want to separate these out into two distinct entities

They are two distinct entities: the acorn in front of you actually exists as a collection of cells. The tree does not. The tree is an abstraction... a myth in your mind. It does not have any true physical properties.

Every egg is not a chicken. Every sperm is not a person. It has the potential, yes, but in the present moment an egg is simply an egg.

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#198
post #76

As a curiosity and side note, Salmon wasn't always eaten by the Japanese as sushi. It was considered a garbage fish that you'd grill due to its likelihood of being infected by parasites. It was the Norwegians that had a surplus, and was looking for a new market to open up that salmon sushi became a thing. https://medium.com/torodex/salmon-sushi-is-not-a-japanese-in... The Norwegians probably won't pay attention to th…

Succinctly: When people defend meat eating as part of their cultural heritage, they're defending a marketing campaign from the last 80 years.

Well that's a leap

Re: Wildtype: Sushi-grade salmon grown from Pacific Salmon cells

#199
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the discourse has shifted to describe even legitimate businesses that are overvalued in the opinion of an author as "pump and dump" or "ponzi scheme"

It’s maybe not entirely accurate, but it seems at least in the ballpark of a reasonable description for a public company that’s never made money and has no legible path to making money. That said, it looks Beyond Meat made money in two quarters last year. So not a good fit on those criteria.

> It’s maybe not entirely accurate, but it seems at least in the ballpark of a reasonable description for a public company that’s never made money and has no legible path to making money.

Which is the whole point of YC. IPO over valued companies and dump it on the retailers while cashing out your chips. Never mind the structural dangers cheap capital pose when the cycle winds down.

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