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Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

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Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#681

Post by kijin »

unchocked wrote: post #481
jean_tta wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no need to compare CPUs between mobile/non mobile or generation. They just need to know if the laptop they're looking at has the high end / middle end / low end CPU. You'd be comparing a new laptop with latest(-ish) CPUs. The i3/i5/i7 makes it plain & simple to know that. You don't need to figure out what the "middle end" CPU is called this year. It's the i5, problem solved.

Right, and this describes the marketing problem. If I already have an i5, why would I need another one unless it's broken? If I have an M1 and they're selling M5's, I'm continually reminded that my rig is out of date.

This reminds me of when the iPhone first came out. Back then, most phones from other manufacturers had an assortment of random names and model numbers that carried no hint as to which one was better or newer. Meanwhile, iPhone N+1 was obviously better than iPhone N.

Samsung quickly learned to play the same trick with their yearly Galaxy S and Galaxy Note releases. That decision probably contributed to the market share they've been enjoying.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#682

Post by dijit »

hiq wrote: post #563
gambiting wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AAA video games do that for you :P Well, it isn't the programming part that uses the ram(although yes, building our codebase takes about 40 minutes and uses gigabytes of ram without using distributed build), but just starting up local server + client + editor easily uses 80-100GB of ram since ALL of the assets are loaded in.

Did you have the chance to try your setup on an M1? If it worked for your sister, although you seem to have way higher requirements, is there anything to say it wouldn't work for you? I'm asking because I read a lot of comments when it was released that it just doesn't need as much RAM because $REASONS. I wouldn't put my money on this, but I'm curious if this assumption holds water now that people have had time to tr…

I doubt it's possible to try a AAA dev setup on OSX at all, and, for whatever it's worth 64G workstations were "hand-me-downs" at my previous gig (AAA gamedev), I doubt there's much magic that can make "64 gig is not nearly enough" go to "16G is fine"

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#683

Post by bayindirh »

markphip wrote: post #674
bayindirh wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use an M1 powered 16GB MacBook Air and I've never seen any freezing, even under heavy load. I don't use Google Chrome though. Also, system is writing to the SSD with the same rate of my Linux machines: 4TB/year.

Same here, zero freezing and amazing performance. I use Safari though and have not even installed Chrome.

I consider Chrome harmful TBH. I use Safari and Firefox (and I sync it with my other, non-apple computers).

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#684

Post by slver »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #659
slver wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Intel sells CPUs, so it creates the ranges of CPUs to make money. They advertise clock speed and put the higher ones on a pedestal, that is how they can charge more money. How is any of this specific to Intel? Apple uses M1 at different clockrates in different devices. And that's not only due to battery and heat concerns, but also because those M1 are rated to run without errors at different clockrates. Similarly t…

> How is any of this specific to Intel? As of right now, there are 6 different Intel processor brands and close to 100 different SKUs. Source: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/details/pro... Currently, there is one M1.

I just explained above there's no single M1. They vary by core count, and by clockrate. And probably more.

The only thing that's "one" about M1 is the brand. It's one brand. It's easy to have a clean brand, when you don't sell naked CPUs by themselves. "Oh everything we have has M1". It doesn't even matter if this is accurate or not, we realize that, right?

Are we going to hold up Intel for having hundreds of SKUs because they sell chips alone, and Apple sells them in computers? I hope not, that'd be silly.

Are we also going to hold up Intel for being in the PC CPU business for decades, while Apple has been at it for several months only? I hope not, that'd also be silly.

Finally, are we going to hold up Intel for targeting cheap office machines, and high-end data centers, and hardcore gamers, and scientific uses, and many other customers that Apple isn't even trying to have? I hope not, same reason. :-)

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#685

Post by taternuts »

MrDOS wrote: post #530
hkstm wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think most of the HN demographic is actually running big IDEs, containers and VMs at the same time? I'm personally a CS student and never had to run more than a few lightweight docker containers + maybe one running some kind of database + VS Code and that has been working fine on a laptop with 8GB and pop_os. Could imagine that a lot of other people on HN are also just generally interested in tech but not nece…

> lightweight docker containers If you're on macOS, there's no such thing as a “lightweight Docker container”. The container itself might be small, but Docker itself is running a full Linux virtual machine. In no world is that “lightweight”.

I was going to say, I'm on a 16gb 2015 macbook pro (not sure what to upgrade to) and Docker for Mac is _brutal_ on my machine, I can't even run it and work on other things at the same time without frustration

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#686

Post by ianai »

foldr wrote: post #543
afavour wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not so sure. I think it reaches a meaningful maximum. Can I do an entire days work on the laptop? Yes to both. Can it last an entire flight, even a long one? Yes to both. It’s not that it doesn’t matter at all, it’s just that it matters a lot less once you’ve checked boxes like that. The effective experience of both would be “you only need to charge it overnight”

What the sibling says, but you've also got to take battery degradation into account. Even at 80% of its original battery life, an M1 Macbook Pro/Air will still give you a full day's usage.

Just to admit something odd I do in public. I've started using my lithium powered devices between the 40%-80% charge range. i.e. I plug it in when it's at or around 40% left charged and unplug it when it's 80% charged or around there. I'd read that's what Tesla drivers recommend for maximizing the life of their batteries. Don't know how much it translates to phones/computers. 40% of 20 hours is 8 hours...

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#687

Post by kijin »

caslon wrote: post #469
jean_tta wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no need to compare CPUs between mobile/non mobile or generation. They just need to know if the laptop they're looking at has the high end / middle end / low end CPU. You'd be comparing a new laptop with latest(-ish) CPUs. The i3/i5/i7 makes it plain & simple to know that. You don't need to figure out what the "middle end" CPU is called this year. It's the i5, problem solved.

You can't forget that there are multiple variants of i3, i5 and i7 every year! And presumably now the i9 but I haven't been paying attention. 6400 6500 6600 6600 k random assortment of numbers and letters! It hardly works! The consumer still has to do just as much work!

It's even worse these days. There are letters in the middle of the model name, e.g. i7-1165G7, not just at the beginning and end! That thing doesn't even sort. You have no idea where to position it without seeing the spec sheet and Passmark scores.

We consumers have it easy, though. Go find some Xeon or EPYC model numbers and try to figure out which digit means what. They make absolutely no sense.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#688

Post by bredren »

Solstinox wrote: post #587
_fat_santa wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the efficiency of the new M1 is what blows everyone away. When the M1 first came out I was super super skeptical, seemed like an under powered chip compared to what's in the x86 world. Now I'm convinced that it's got some magic inside it. Everyone I've talked to said it chews throw whatever they throw at it. I'm consistently floored by Apple's ability to innovate.

It’s funny you say “innovate.” They certainly innovated with the M1, but with one key difference. They did so in public, step-by-step over the course of a decade. Perhaps more than any other Apple innovation, we have the greatest visibility into the process with the M1.

I consider ability to perform open development of future products a key differentiator for Apple.

Like Jobs said in his Stanford speech, “You can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future.”

It seems like Apple uniquely combines open development of technology in known products with secrecy around new product development.

This allows people to be so surprised by the M1, when the late AX processors were obviously pointing toward massive capability.

I believe there are other examples of this happening--specifically with the Apple Watch.

On that product, the size limitations combined with increasing expectations of performance and functionality have allowed Apple learn and improve production-capability in many areas that will be in any forthcoming AR/VR products.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#689

Post by dgemm »

jodrellblank wrote: post #663
api wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t buy the hype until I tested an actual M1. It exceeded the hype. It feels like when I was a kid and went from a 386SX to a Pentium at 4X the speed, except the M1 was also a quarter the power consumption. It’s the first time in a over a decade I’ve felt a revolutionary step forward in a chip and the only time it has ever come with less power. Process node is a factor but I find it hard to believe it’s the only…

> " Apple didn’t do black magic. [...] Other ARM manufacturers could equal or exceed the M1 if they wanted. " I see lots of people saying "If only $company had an ARM device", and I don't understand it. My experience of ARM device is slow laggy janky products - from competing smartphones, tablets, router and network device management interfaces, year on year, the pairing is always (arm + fucking slow). It's only Appl…

Apple is pretty uniquely positioned to make the architecture change as smooth as it has been. If you look at competing smartphone SOCs it's not hard to believe that a technical M1 competitor could be put together, but getting it adopted would be much, much more difficult.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#690

Post by rjzzleep »

bayindirh wrote: post #673
sillysaurusx wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heavy load in my case is a few dozen terminal tabs, six of which are running TPU training jobs, 40 chrome tabs, a few of which are playing twitch streams and YouTube videos, a half dozen instances of pycharm, one webstorm, one clion, around 35 macvim windows, and a few dozen PDFs open in Preview. I’m not exactly representative, but I think the stddev of usage patterns is high across developers. The unfortunate part i…

This is heavy load for any machine unless it's configured as a bona fide workstation. Any machine, any OS (with M1 MacBook Air's HW configuration) would trash its SSD while swapping in that case, IMHO. > I’m not exactly representative, but I think the stddev of usage patterns is high across developers. When I'm in development mode with all cylinders firing, I have a single Eclipse window in CDT perspective, a couple…

Well on Linux my 16GB thinkpad would thrash for more than 60 seconds unless I sysrq.
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