Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

On Being an Outsider

lithub.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 115 posts

Re: On Being an Outsider

#101

Post by periheli0n »

atoav wrote: post #92
periheli0n wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.

For me it is actually not fear of being made fun of, it is just that I don't like to repeat myself because I am not understood. Talking in a way where people understand what you are saying has tangible benefits. My home dialect is so far removed from "propper written German" that to me it just feels like talking a different language, which arguably makes things easier, because it doesn't feel like I am adjusting my A…

I agree... I always find it a little sad that Germany fails to embrace the diversity of its local dialects. When I grew up in the south of Germany I could tell which village someone was from after listening to a couple of sentences they spoke.

But when moving away one must quench that local dialect and try to speak "hochdeutsch" ("high-german")—Otherwise one can't even buy bread in a bakery without being called out as the "swabian" (which seems to be the catch-all for all southern dialects in Northern Germany). Compare that to Switzerland, where people proudly speak their "Mundart" wherever they go (and are wound up by high-German speaking immigrants).

Germany has such a wonderful regional diversity, but at the same time that inherent hostility against it... and Germans are, for some reason, super-afraid to discuss it.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#102

Post by em-bee »

periheli0n wrote: post #99
iovrthoughtthis wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

country is a red flag here. i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity. which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.

I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations. The EU is actually trying very hard t…

quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago

which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#103

Post by timeslip1523 »

em-bee wrote: post #102
periheli0n wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations. The EU is actually trying very hard t…

quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.

No way in hell. The idea of a nation didn't spring out of nowhere, tribes and ethnicities are much older. You're not going to make the greeks become germans by the EU... encouraging open borders? I guess replacing the greeks would be a change, but it seems kind of like cheating.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#104

Post by nicbou »

I also live in Berlin, since about 6 years.

I think I'll always feel like an outsider here, but this city is very much my own.

Part of it comes from a personal investment in this city. I invested in its language and its bureaucracy. I have built a business with this city in its name, whose purpose is to help others who face the same bureaucratic and cultural challenges. I also moderated a Berlin-related community for a few years.

Another part is exploration. I actively seek new experiences in Berlin. I try new places, new dishes, new bike paths, new activities. I read about German culture and history, watched dozens of German movies, cooked German dishes, and all the other things.

The one missing part in my opinion is the social aspect, and I blame myself for it. I usually keep to myself, and didn't take learning German seriously enough for a while. Yet, it took me so long to make friends and become comfortable with the language that it's my strongest attachment to the city. I'm not ready to start over again.

By now if I went back to my home country, I'd feel much more alienated. I have spent the better part of my adult life in Berlin. It's where everything I built lies.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#105

Post by periheli0n »

em-bee wrote: post #102
periheli0n wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to feel the same. The concept of a "nation" seems to be at the source of many problems as the world shifts to globalism. It really only works by creating a divide between "them" and "us". It helps instilling a sense of belonging and a base level of trust in a group of people, but inevitably nationalism becomes a problem when people would like to move between these nations. The EU is actually trying very hard t…

quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.

I think trying to make those differences go away is the wrong approach. It would be better to accept and embrace them. It requires breaking down preconceptions and unconscious bias about "others", which is generally a hard thing for humans, unfortunately.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#106

Post by periheli0n »

nicbou wrote: post #104

I also live in Berlin, since about 6 years. I think I'll always feel like an outsider here, but this city is very much my own. Part of it comes from a personal investment in this city. I invested in its language and its bureaucracy. I have built a business with this city in its name, whose purpose is to help others who face the same bureaucratic and cultural challenges. I also moderated a Berlin-related community for…

Of all large German cities, Berlin is probably the most unwelcoming... or rather, the Berliners are. The typical Berliner seems to take a certain pride in being unfriendly and even hostile. Funny enough, I often found that they open up when one is unfriendly to them in return. Difficult though when one is not aware of the subtleties of the language. But to be fair, it's not just non-Germans who struggle with that aspect of Berliner culture; most non-Berlin/Brandenburg Germans are irritated by it, too.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#107

Post by em-bee »

periheli0n wrote: post #105
em-bee wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quite a few EU member nations have not existed 150 or 200 years ago which gives us an estimate for how long it might take until those differences disappear. the EU in it's current form (with freedom of movement within, promoting a shared identity) has only existed for a few decades. so maybe another half a century, give or take a decades or two.

I think trying to make those differences go away is the wrong approach. It would be better to accept and embrace them. It requires breaking down preconceptions and unconscious bias about "others", which is generally a hard thing for humans, unfortunately.

oh, that i agree with. i certainly didn't mean that the different unique aspects to each region should go away, but the identities connected to them.

i meant differences as in disagreements. those differences that make us argue and fight.

we should not be proud to love our country, but to love the whole world.

and that indeed requires to accept and embrace all of human diversity. the european union is possibly a step towards that goal.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#108

Post by maniatico »

As a Venezuelan in Europe this feeling is eerily familiar. Including being the enjoyer of a communist utopia and whose family resisted the fascists of the 50s. Furthermore with mixed feeling on what to call home, given that what used to be home is still burning and you have family and friends still there

Re: On Being an Outsider

#109

Post by nicbou »

periheli0n wrote: post #106
nicbou wrote: post #104

I also live in Berlin, since about 6 years. I think I'll always feel like an outsider here, but this city is very much my own. Part of it comes from a personal investment in this city. I invested in its language and its bureaucracy. I have built a business with this city in its name, whose purpose is to help others who face the same bureaucratic and cultural challenges. I also moderated a Berlin-related community for…

Of all large German cities, Berlin is probably the most unwelcoming... or rather, the Berliners are. The typical Berliner seems to take a certain pride in being unfriendly and even hostile. Funny enough, I often found that they open up when one is unfriendly to them in return. Difficult though when one is not aware of the subtleties of the language. But to be fair, it's not just non-Germans who struggle with that asp…

I do notice a difference between Berlin and Brandenburg. When I venture beyond the city limits, people greet you, and tend to make small talk more easily (not that I start it myself). It's something I also enjoyed in the south of Germany. It was certainly hard to adjust to it, coming from a small Canadian city. My favourite part of visiting North America is being friendly and chatty with everyone.

The Berliner Schnauze is certainly a real thing, but I don't think it's that common. More common perhaps is Ausländer using the term to excuse their unpleasant behaviour. I've seen that a lot more.

Re: On Being an Outsider

#110

Post by mmmmmbop »

periheli0n wrote: post #106
nicbou wrote: post #104

I also live in Berlin, since about 6 years. I think I'll always feel like an outsider here, but this city is very much my own. Part of it comes from a personal investment in this city. I invested in its language and its bureaucracy. I have built a business with this city in its name, whose purpose is to help others who face the same bureaucratic and cultural challenges. I also moderated a Berlin-related community for…

Of all large German cities, Berlin is probably the most unwelcoming... or rather, the Berliners are. The typical Berliner seems to take a certain pride in being unfriendly and even hostile. Funny enough, I often found that they open up when one is unfriendly to them in return. Difficult though when one is not aware of the subtleties of the language. But to be fair, it's not just non-Germans who struggle with that asp…

> Of all large German cities, Berlin is probably the most unwelcoming

You really think so? I was under the impression that Munich is the most unwelcoming city.

Post reply on HN