Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Lichess will always be free

lichess.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 477 posts

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#91

Post by topicseed »

zimbatm wrote: post #61
pull_my_finger wrote: post #6

> There is absolutely nothing positive about advertisements on websites from the perspective of their users. They eat up valuable screen space and bandwidth for something that nobody wants to see. They often manipulate and misinform. They have even been the source of security vulnerabilities many times in the past. While I share the loathing of modern Ads as a service or whatever the technical name for giving Google/…

Ads are an attack on our attention. When I go to a website, I decide to direct my attention to this website, because I believe it will offer something of interest to me. Obviously things don't come for free, somebody has to pay for it, but the issue is that as a user, I didn't agree to getting my attention diverted. The trade isn't done upfront and by the time I see the ad, it's already too late. There is also a coll…

Would you say the same about free TV's ads coming mid-program? Or newspapers you actually buy that still contain ads? How would such a trade be done upfront in your opinion?

In a way, you are the one coming to PLATFORM (site, newspaper, TV program), so don't come back maybe, but don't tell PLATFORM whether they can out a distracting vase at the entrance, or ads on the sidebar, or a distracting ticker at the bottom of the screen.

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#92

Post by hinkley »

rectang wrote: post #10
hinkley wrote: post #4

There are two interpretations of “why”. What is the motivation for it being free. What is the mechanism for it being free. In one of the links, > It amounts to $170 per month. Great news: I have a job (at prismic.io) and I can completely afford that. Lichess is my hobby, and all hobbies cost a bit of money. I can tell you that the joy of building lichess is absolutely worth the price I pay for it! Maybe it’s because…

People don't want to hear it. They want to believe in those promises. They like being told beautiful lies.

It’ll be interesting watching it play out over the next five or ten years.

We can’t be far from having a critical mass of people who realize all the stuff they’ve been eye-rolling at or downvoting is actually true, and then acting like they discovered something new. Half the time I’m just parroting people older than me. More field correspondent than discoverer.

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#93

Post by blowski »

jhrmnn wrote: post #43
csbartus wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Lichess decided to promote some chess books or software on their page to supplement their donations, Why more? If donations are enough why ads? "Advertising is the way we grant power to the machine" - said Samuel Butler in Erewhon (1872). I'm thinking a lot about the nature of advertising. I guess, after all, it sells excess, stuff which shouldn't exist. It propels low quality, overproduction, unlimited and unne…

The reason I’ve felt a strong distaste for ads since being a teenager is that ultimately they rob me of, or try to mess with, my free choice

Almost all human interaction is in some way trying to persuade you to choose something that you might otherwise not. When I ask my wife "Shall we play a board game?" I'm in some way doing the same thing. That's not evil.

Advertising is not inherently evil.

When it becomes evil is when it intentionally tries to deceive us, capture and processe insane amounts of information about us, and influence the display of information for its own ends. If I did that to my wife, it wouldn't be OK.

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#94

Post by deallocator »

topicseed wrote: post #91
zimbatm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ads are an attack on our attention. When I go to a website, I decide to direct my attention to this website, because I believe it will offer something of interest to me. Obviously things don't come for free, somebody has to pay for it, but the issue is that as a user, I didn't agree to getting my attention diverted. The trade isn't done upfront and by the time I see the ad, it's already too late. There is also a coll…

Would you say the same about free TV's ads coming mid-program? Or newspapers you actually buy that still contain ads? How would such a trade be done upfront in your opinion? In a way, you are the one coming to PLATFORM (site, newspaper, TV program), so don't come back maybe, but don't tell PLATFORM whether they can out a distracting vase at the entrance, or ads on the sidebar, or a distracting ticker at the bottom of…

I think the correct analogy would be that there's a corner in the screen where advertisement is playing constantly while whatever show you're watching runs. Obviously the advertisement is going to distract you from time to time, and you won't have your full attention on the show.

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#95

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

hinkley wrote: post #53
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry the free website hasn’t set up a trust for you.

I’m sorry a free website is blowing smoke up my ass about future plans. I’ve been hearing this same promise for longer than many Hackernews reader have been alive. It does not get easier to hear it with each retelling. There are more than two states available here. An excellent time to announce always free is when you set up the trust. An excellent time to announce the intention to be free is when asking for advice o…

I don’t know what to say. I think you are extremely zoomed in here on a free chess website haha.

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#96

Post by sillysaurusx »

zimbatm wrote: post #61
pull_my_finger wrote: post #6

> There is absolutely nothing positive about advertisements on websites from the perspective of their users. They eat up valuable screen space and bandwidth for something that nobody wants to see. They often manipulate and misinform. They have even been the source of security vulnerabilities many times in the past. While I share the loathing of modern Ads as a service or whatever the technical name for giving Google/…

Ads are an attack on our attention. When I go to a website, I decide to direct my attention to this website, because I believe it will offer something of interest to me. Obviously things don't come for free, somebody has to pay for it, but the issue is that as a user, I didn't agree to getting my attention diverted. The trade isn't done upfront and by the time I see the ad, it's already too late. There is also a coll…

They don't have to be.

Let me do some advertising right now. Daniel Naroditsky's twitch stream is amazing. Go watch 'em https://www.twitch.tv/gmnaroditsky

(If you're into chess, you almost certainly already know about him.)

He also gets into feuds with Hikaru and won't shut up about him for some reason nowadays, and is constantly on a soapbox, but whatever. The chess is fun to watch.

Now, if you saw a banner ad for that on lichess, would you really feel awful about it? I mean, that's a fine perspective, but I'm of the opinion of "just shovel all the content in front of me and let me pick out what I like." It works wonderfully on YouTube's recommendation algorithm.

But of course, your feelings are justified for modern ads as currently implemented. Mobile games are just a complete horror fest now. (It was delightful to discover Cardinal Quest 2, since every aspect of the game can be played without paying a cent or seeing an ad. It's more or less "chess, but with monsters.")

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#97

Post by alexgmcm »

matsemann wrote: post #30
laydn wrote: post #7

Cost breakdown here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Si3PMUJGR9KrpE5lngSk... I hope OVH would donate some compute/machines to lichess. It would help lichess a lot financially. It would be good publicity for OVH and I think it would be a drop in the ocean on their balance sheet.

I feel like the developer/founder should have a higher salary. $58k a year for running a site with millions of games per day.. deserves more. Is it because they don't get enough donations? Or saving the extra money for growth/buffer? (edit: originally posted this as a top level comment but felt it fit better here) Edit2: just checked. I've spent 11 whole days playing chess there (and not sure if that only counts game…

In France that's a reasonable salary for an experienced engineer.

I agree it's low for someone running the whole show, but then he is doing it as a non-profit.

Tech salaries in the US are really high compared to RoW, even once CoL is taken into account.

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#98

Post by sillysaurusx »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #45
nly wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy hell that's an expensive project. Do donations cover all this, or are the operators independently wealthy and generous?

That's a cheap project. I have seen a single developer's salary to be more than that. Considering that around a billion games were played last year in lichess.

Uh, $55k a year is not cheap! What world... Ok, it's late, I'll hold back the rest of my words. :)

I think you were saying it's cheap relative to the impact it has. I agree. But "holy hell that's expensive" is an entirely accurate reaction for someone who wants to fund it out of pocket.

(Gwern covers our TPU/ML infrastructure costs for around $350/mo, and I wince that I wasn't able to optimize it cheaper.)

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#99

Post by ZephyrBlu »

indigochill wrote: post #88
ZephyrBlu wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is assuming that this stream of income doesn't ever dry up. I personally think that the founder should have enough money to never worry about money, or at least have a big buffer. If at some point in the future for whatever reason Lichess gets less donations, he could be screwed. On the other hand if he had a bit of a warchest he either has runway to increase revenue or to find another source of income.

Then really Lichess should have FU money. This both secures his income as long as he continues working on it, then lets him hire a replacement whenever he decides to retire.

Sure, it's up the founder of course. I think the they've created enough value to deserve that money for themselves and to use in any way they see fit though.

Maybe that would be putting it back into Lichess when they retire or maybe after 10 years they decide they want to work on something else and they live off that money to do so.

Re: Why Lichess will always be free

#100

Post by Cthulhu_ »

pull_my_finger wrote: post #6

> There is absolutely nothing positive about advertisements on websites from the perspective of their users. They eat up valuable screen space and bandwidth for something that nobody wants to see. They often manipulate and misinform. They have even been the source of security vulnerabilities many times in the past. While I share the loathing of modern Ads as a service or whatever the technical name for giving Google/…

Why are you even offering a compromise when they aren't interested? There's plenty of ways for an organization like Lichess to raise funds, the ones that don't claim your attention or fuck your privacy over. Even sponsored links to e.g. chess books as mentioned elsewhere 'leak' data, they contain a referral link, linking that user's visit of the website to (e.g.) their Amazon account. Plus it would be a pittance compared to what Amazon makes off it.

IF they need money they can open up a fundraiser or donation channel.

Post reply on HN