The culture war is killing us [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#31

Post by Pfhreak » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:43 AM UTC

da02 wrote: post #16

Isn't this normal for US politics? This clip could as well have applied to the 60s and 70s. For example: > The late 1960s, early 1970s saw a dramatic shift in the American political matrix, a redefinition of competing political ideologies or belief systems. War, urban riots, campus protests and student alienation, assassinations, inter-generational mistrust, monetary inflation, the growth of the welfare-warfare state…

The civil rights was full of people begging for unity, and asking Black leaders to just calm down and wait.

All the calls for calm today are exactly the calls for calm they've always been in America -- calls from folks who are not suffering to those who are to just deal with it.

In my opinion, calling for unity and calling for calm are dismissive of very real concerns people have.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#32

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #21

kaliali wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Hill is nothing but liberal propaganda. Billionaires buy corporate media to inject views in the populace that benefit the billionaires. If they're good at playing the slow game and lobbying congress, they can influence the thinking of a generation of people through education and media. Millenials don't think like boomers who don't think like the Greatest Generation who don't think like their parents generation be…

The owner and manger of the The Hill, Jimmy finkelstein, is a friend of Trump's, whose wife held an unpaid position as adviser to Melania trump in 2017-18 ( a fact not mentioned to Hill readers). Given that the outlet publishes a large number of libertarian and conservative op-eds, your claim seems at odds with reality, and is not supported by anything other than vague generalities about demography.

Trump was a New York democrat most of his life. His platform had a lot in common with Bernie Sanders. To name some areas of overlap: strict border control, ending the wars, and renegotiating trade deals. Trump increased restrictions on guns. Trump was even open to socialized healthcare but the republicans wouldn’t have supported that.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#33

Post by pmoriarty » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:51 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #28

clcaev wrote: post #10

I believe the cultural wars focus the population's attention on issues that divide us, rather than issues that would unite: concentration of power, gutting of main street, etc. The detachment of our news and media from local civics denies our population practice working together, with real problems, with real consensus. Instead the polarization is on more abstract, national, and intractable concerns -- political spor…

A decade ago the activists were occupying Wall Street. Now they’re all aligned with the mega corps and the fighting is about semantics of how we say that lives matter. I believe this was deliberate. That doesn’t mean I necessarily believe some evil people twirled their mustaches to plot evil in secret, but is rather the result of many organizations working unison towards common goals without the necessity of central…

"A decade ago the activists were occupying Wall Street. Now they’re all aligned with the mega corps and the fighting is about semantics of how we say that lives matter"

Completely different issues.

They are aligned against discrimination, but divided on economic inequality.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#34

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:55 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #33

Consultant32452 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A decade ago the activists were occupying Wall Street. Now they’re all aligned with the mega corps and the fighting is about semantics of how we say that lives matter. I believe this was deliberate. That doesn’t mean I necessarily believe some evil people twirled their mustaches to plot evil in secret, but is rather the result of many organizations working unison towards common goals without the necessity of central…

"A decade ago the activists were occupying Wall Street. Now they’re all aligned with the mega corps and the fighting is about semantics of how we say that lives matter" Completely different issues. They are aligned against discrimination, but divided on economic inequality.

They are aligned with anything that lets them continue to make money. And they are more than happy to keep your finite attention on topics that don’t affect them. One hits the bottom line and the other is some execs go on a retreat and they hang a few signs up.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#35

Post by forgingahead » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:57 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #26

anigbrowl wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The media didn't create divisiveness, although significant parts of it exploit the divisiveness for commercial purposes. We have objective evidence of severe legislative polarization at the federal level going back to the 1980s: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

"We have objective evidence of severe legislative polarization at the federal level going back to the 1980s" Political divisiveness in the US goes back much further than that. In the "you think it's bad now" department, I remember reading about the case of, I think it was in the 1800's, of a congressman assaulting another congressman with a cane over some political issue. Of course the most infamous case of political…

I remember reading about the case of, I think it was in the 1800's, of a congressman assaulting another congressman with a cane over some political issue.

This was the Caning of Charles Sumner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Charles_Sumner

And yes, you and the grandparent comment are exactly right - this has been going on for ages, precisely because the economic incentives of media have been to create strife and discord for the eyeballs (and now clicks). Even in the days before 24-cable news, I remember thinking it would be nice that if when the nightly news came on, they would just say "All is well today. Have a good night!". And close the program.

But they can't - imagine the reaction from their advertising customers? "We paid you for these slots, you jolly well better produce the eyeballs on it!".

The mainstream mass media has been a weapon for as long as it's been around. In previous generations the elites and government kept quiet about it, because it served their purpose of cohesiveness and national unity, especially after WWII. (Never mind the consistent denigration of the Russians externally, I'm referring to internal Anglo Western societies).

But at some point in recent history, it switched instead from being more profitable to have national unity, to being more profitable with national DISunity. And so all and sundry have become "issues of the day", feeding the beast of the content and advertising machine.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#36

Post by pmoriarty » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #31

da02 wrote: post #16

Isn't this normal for US politics? This clip could as well have applied to the 60s and 70s. For example: > The late 1960s, early 1970s saw a dramatic shift in the American political matrix, a redefinition of competing political ideologies or belief systems. War, urban riots, campus protests and student alienation, assassinations, inter-generational mistrust, monetary inflation, the growth of the welfare-warfare state…

The civil rights was full of people begging for unity, and asking Black leaders to just calm down and wait. All the calls for calm today are exactly the calls for calm they've always been in America -- calls from folks who are not suffering to those who are to just deal with it. In my opinion, calling for unity and calling for calm are dismissive of very real concerns people have.

"All the calls for calm today are exactly the calls for calm they've always been in America -- calls from folks who are not suffering to those who are to just deal with it."

Martin Luther King Jr. and the rest of the non-violent Civil Rights movement during the 1960's were calling for calm as they were being beaten, firehosed, attacked with dogs, imprisoned, assasinated and lynched. So I guess you must think they didn't suffer?

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#37

Post by ausbah » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:58 AM UTC

I very much dislike media like this that tries to reduce polarization by "presenting both sides" because, at least on its face, falsely presents "both sides" as "equally valid" when that just isn't true

there are positions like trans rights, voting restrictions, climate change, etc. that don't have "equally valid perspectives" from both sides - and treating like such is foolish

I know attitude doesn't help the problem but it's my two cents

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#38

Post by Pfhreak » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 3:03 AM UTC

I'm going to directly rebut/address some things that I disagreed with, I'm going to to try to do so calmly and in a way that furthers discussion, let me know if I don't do a good job. This is obviously a politically charged topic, so I'd ask folks to use their votes on how effective I am on articulating my concerns and furthering discussion rather than if you agree/disagree with my political opinions.

He discusses the response to Chauvin's trial --

This... misrepresents a lot of people's opinions. I don't say, "Derek Chauvin's sentencing was good but not enough." because I'm appealing to my tribe, I'm saying it because I genuinely feel we have significant improvements we need to make to policing. A single conviction is a watershed moment, but it isn't the same as doing the hard work of reforming or abolishing policing. It's not nothing, but it's also not enough. It was necessary, but not sufficient (assuming you believe policing should be reformed.)

He says, "I never thought I'd use the word sectarian to describe US politics" --

US politics have been FULL of historical examples of violent conflicts over politics. From independence, abolition, the civil war, the bombings of unions, the civil rights movement (and the murders of their leaders), the handling of the AIDS epidemic -- there are many, many cases where sides have resorted to literal violence against individuals and leaders on 'the other side'. He goes on to say we were founded to be a democratic society free from sectarianism, but this seems like a very hagiographic view of our history.

People vote against candidates, not for candidates --

Yeah, this makes sense. I'd agree with this. I don't know anyone who voted for Biden who was excited about it.

"The emotions of feeling under assault are powerful, but if we succumb to them, then we deserve our violent fate" --

This needs to be challenged more. There are communities that exist that are under assault. Trans women, for instance, face a rate of violence that is unbelievably high. What are communities under assault supposed to do? There's a material difference in my mind to communities that are suffering violence at the hands of majorities, and telling them "don't feel under assault" when they very much are is counter-productive.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#39

Post by Pfhreak » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 3:05 AM UTC

jtbayly wrote: post #27

clcaev wrote: post #10

I believe the cultural wars focus the population's attention on issues that divide us, rather than issues that would unite: concentration of power, gutting of main street, etc. The detachment of our news and media from local civics denies our population practice working together, with real problems, with real consensus. Instead the polarization is on more abstract, national, and intractable concerns -- political spor…

> Sustainable power comes from the bottom up, not the top down. I’m all for decreasing the size and scope of the federal government as well, but I hardly think that’s a non-polarizing opinion.

Interesting, I read that more as a call for more union power and worker ownership. Our biases are showing. :D

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#40

Post by maroonblazer » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

I'm surprised income and wealth inequality didn't enter into the discussion. That seems like a significant contributing factor to sectarianism and the culture wars.

Economic dividends concentrated in a smaller group coupled with technology that is accessible to everyone and amplifies the differences between the two groups seems to portend a bad outcome.