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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#471

Post by agumonkey »

jpmattia wrote: post #316

To amplify Paul's point: The legal standard in all criminal trials is "Beyond a reasonable doubt": > The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty. And yet, DNA testing has exonerated man…

Yes, justice should never ever enact something irremediable. History showed how not matter the means, technology, experience, diligence.. errors still occur.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#472

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway932234 wrote: post #464
DoreenMichele wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among other things: You are assuming they are actually guilty. The very article under discussion shows that innocent people go to prison. There's a whole lot more I don't agree with here, but it seems unlikely to be a fruitful discussion.

I wrote for persons that are in a way innocent, as they had no choice but are guilty if they really did commit the crime worthy of the punishment. I'll confirm here for you that I think even an innocent person should be given a way out by euthanasia if they're living such a nightmare of being stuck in prison for a life sentence while truly innocent by not committing the accused crime(s). We definitely as a society sh…

[deleted]

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#473

Post by rufus_foreman »

The examples he gives for why we should end the death penalty are almost all people who weren't given the death penalty because the legal process exonerated them before they were executed. I don't expect any process to be perfect, but he has one example of someone who may (or may not) have been executed for a crime he didn't commit.

I'm against the death penalty - it is too much power for a government to have. I am slightly less against it after reading Paul Graham's argument. I guess that's called an own goal.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#474

Post by sjg007 »

rayiner wrote: post #348
jpmattia wrote: post #316

To amplify Paul's point: The legal standard in all criminal trials is "Beyond a reasonable doubt": > The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty. And yet, DNA testing has exonerated man…

What does “beyond a reasonable doubt” mean in probability terms? Most people say 90-95%, which suggests even Graham’s 4% number (which is on the high end of such estimates, see: https://dc.law.utah.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1130&con... ) is actually consistent with the system working as designed. Also, while you’re thinking about that, what’s your estimate of the probability that Derek Chauvin’s negligence was…

Maybe you should read the actual charges and Minnesota law; it covers all of your hypotheticals.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#475

Post by sjg007 »

domador wrote: post #366

I think the main reason to end the death penalty is different: capital punishment is a very dangerous power for any nation to have over its inhabitants. Many of us are accustomed to living in stable democracies. Yet how easily and quickly could any of them become a totalitarian state or a reign of terror, where innocent people (especially activists and dissidents) are executed on false charges? Contemporary nations s…

>the ones that essentially allow street executions by the police.

This is America and it needs to change.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#476

Post by sjg007 »

jcims wrote: post #113
rswail wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…

>Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. I don't agree. All of these moral castigations about it being 'inhumane' or 'barbaric' don't strike me as rational or compelling in the least. I think the idea is humane in the context of those impacted by the crimes in question and I don't see how putting a person in a box for the remainder of their…

You could also go with it's racist. The death penalty is racist.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#477

Post by sjg007 »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #162
rmcpherson wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We hold these truths to be self evident...” is from the Declaration of Independence. It does not appear in the Constitution.

Doesn't matter. The Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution is not limited to the words of the document. The Constitution itself is derived from a history of law, letters, and intent that predate the very concept of the United States.

Depends on if you are an originalist or not.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#478

Post by ReactiveJelly »

ixacto wrote: post #315
mbesto wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I learned from Criminology 101 in college was this: By far, the largest factor of deterrence was the likelihood of getting caught. So, people, do in fact rationalize "I'm definitely going to get caught and the consequences are bad, I won't do it". So, to your point, the punishment itself is largely a deterrence. I think because a rational human being simply cannot grok the differences in long term effects. This…

The death penalty should not be abolished because to some criminals in society the threat of force is the only thing they respect.

Life in prison is already a threat of force. The force is that they're forced to stay in prison.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#479

Post by ReactiveJelly »

chrisco255 wrote: post #399
klelatti wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anders Breivik. Simply not true that he will be walking free in 9 years time. > A sentence of permanent detention can be imposed if there is considerable danger of repetition. Permanent detention is not subject to any timeframe. However, the court always fixes a timeframe that may not exceed 21 years. When the timeframe expires the offender may be re-assessed. If the court concludes that there is still a danger of re…

That's a relief, but the guy should be put to death. It does no one any favors to keep stringing them along on an arbitrary indefinite attention. The victims have to be worried that he'll get let loose and strike again. The perpetrator is meanwhile tortured through indefinite extensions. Rarely, but sometimes the case such as Breivik presents itself for which, death is mercy to all involved.

Why can't we give him life and call that mercy, then?

It's not that hard to take a hard line stance against the death penalty and still say that mass murderers don't get to walk free.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#480

Post by ReactiveJelly »

Abigail Thorn of Philosophy Tube recently did a good 39-minute video on capital punishment, focusing a bit on the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDcwIZzaf-k

"Capital Punishment (& Prison Abolition)"

She's a bit left of me. I'm okay with keeping prisons, at least in some part. Gotta put murderers somewhere.

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