How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#281

Post by summm » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

ben0x539 wrote: post #208

zwieback wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's even weirder: church attendance is super low compared the US, the average German pays not to go but on the flipside churches act like social service arms of the government (meals on wheels, eldercare, etc.) Schools also have religious instruction as a main class, although you can opt out. I'm a lifelong atheist but thoroughly enjoyed the religion classes, even picked it as a minor in my upper division classes.…

I grew up in a rural village in Germany. The church operated the kindergarten and the retirement home, and ran some youth organizations with stuff like kids' summer activities. One city over the church ran the hospital, like, to the point where they had nuns on-site. I never really looked too deeply into it but it always felt weird to me how entangled the church is with what is basically treated as public services an…

The religious service providers are reimbursed by the gov and by social insurances just like any other commercial provider. They also get to enjoy lesser worker's protection laws, e.g. they may fire employees who convert away from their religion.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#282

Post by summm » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #176

lucb1e wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can "leave" a church any time you want. For a small fee and an in-person visit to an office "near" you! Or so I've heard (I live in Germany but have never been a church member here so I wouldn't know myself).

Yes. This sucks especially for people living in the countryside. But the fee isn't that much compared to what you have to pay in taxes.

it's like 30€ to 50€

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#283

Post by imtringued » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #168

alkonaut wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously there are tons of people who want to do this. But the difference I think is that fewer people feel the need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their career. Another angle I didn’t think of is the work-hard-retire-early mindset which of course means that a) you work hard and expect high comp for it b) if you do long hours and have little holiday, you have a higher interest in retiring early, which requi…

> But the difference I think is that fewer people feel the need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their career. German savings rates are 50% higher than America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gross_nat...

Weak euro -> trade surplus -> Germany earns more than it spends -> savings -> lends money to importing nations

and the cycle repeats

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#284

Post by sangnoir » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

alanfriedman wrote: post #231

eudajmonia wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from New Zealand, but work in Europe. Recently I started working remotely for an American firm part-time. Those few hours I work for the Americans equates to about 3x the amount of stress from my EU job but with absolutely no protection (at-will clauses). There is such a palpable difference in culture, management style that I am fairly certain I would never work for an American firm again.

Out of curiosity, what were some of the differences in work culture you experienced? I've never worked outside the U.S., so would be interested to hear a different perspective.

Not OP - but I've worked with American and non-American tech companies. For similar-sized companies, my experience was that American companies are more obsessed with productivity and metrics, with more frequent meetings involving people who don't need to be present (including at least one one who is a level or 2 too high, but justify their presence by having to say something which occasionally derails the meeting).

On a purely subjective note: American work culture has lower trust and attempts to extract much more "productivity" from people doing the work compared to European companies, which is not always proportional to the salary differences. My sample size is fairly small (<5)

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#285

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:04 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #24

rapsey wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are not taking into account is that health care costs compared to the US are almost nothing. So is the cost of higher education.

I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed. My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion. Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone (besides those who are very passionate about software) choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?

[deleted]

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#286

Post by closeparen » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

maccard wrote: post #178

FalconSensei wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and quality of life. The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents. I would compare the possible lifestyles and qua…

I've made this point many many times on this site, but if you make 150k in san Francisco, and pay 4k a month on rent, you have more left over after rent and tax than a mid level developer in europe makes as a gross salary.

Which is a fun and profitable adventure for a kid out of college, but a functioning middle-class American grown-up owns his home. That "more left over,' while a lot, is not terribly much against the price of a family home here.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#287

Post by pmh » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:17 PM UTC

llampx wrote: post #277

alkonaut wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're not paying off the principal, you're just renting from the bank without the benefit of having a landlord to fix things. Renting a house is more or less unheard of. If I want a house I need to buy one (or: “rent from the bank” as it were) And the market price is basically “what two high income earners can afford if they pay interest only”. So: if I want to live in a house at all, I need to buy it using bor…

Interest is not deductible in Germany., Unlike the US.

Since the tax changes in 2017, it's effectively not deductible in the US for most

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#288

Post by 908B64B197 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:38 PM UTC

sdevonoes wrote: post #8

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it…

If Europeans devs want better compensation what they need to do is simply vote with their feet and relocate to SV.

That's the only way.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#289

Post by lucb1e » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #176

lucb1e wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can "leave" a church any time you want. For a small fee and an in-person visit to an office "near" you! Or so I've heard (I live in Germany but have never been a church member here so I wouldn't know myself).

Yes. This sucks especially for people living in the countryside. But the fee isn't that much compared to what you have to pay in taxes.

No but what would you say if cancelling your Comcast subscription cost you "not that much" compared to 10% of your income? It's the craziest thing, to me at least, how the heck is this legal? Why can I sign someone else up at birth for paying stuff and yet not be the person liable? And then when they want to cancel my subscription, they have to pay a fine for cancelling?

It's beyond me, even if it's not about a lot of money. Which, I guess, is why it still exists and everyone just swallows it and the church can do things like approve fighting HIV and then launch an investigation when they employed condoms, recommending "natural" contraception methods (in detail) in the same investigation document as well as recommending husbands/wives to just not have sex to not give their partner HIV (and outside of marriage obviously doesn't exist). (I found this via the wikileaks talk at 36c3 and was rather weirded out https://wikileaks.com/popeorders/document/Attachment_9-Commi... )

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#290

Post by flukus » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

jcbrand wrote: post #159

alkonaut wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Savings is for a down payment. Then you pay mortgages on the house and any savings are much better to keep (retirement, buffer, ..). If I were to save to buy my house (€800K) I'd certainly not be living in it before the kids move out, at which point I no longer need a house. The price of a house on the market has a pretty simple formula: it's what two incomes can pay per month times the interest rate they expect over…

If you're not paying off the principal, you're just renting from the bank without the benefit of having a landlord to fix things. Why bother?

Rents increase with inflation, a mortgage doesn't.

I have a few older friends kicking themselves for not buying a property when they could afford it, rents have risen and there is a very real prospect that they will have to move out of the community they spent their lives in.