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Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

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121–130 of 426 posts

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. I help put deals together with some experience in SE Asia. The ability to enforce contract and property rights in the US, with ready access to the courts and relatively clear rules, sets the US apart in terms of business efficiency and predictability. In my assessment, it's a large part of what's made the US so prosperous. In contrast, dealing with corrupt officials in smaller countries in SE Asia is just wild.

Yes, the U.S. has gone to great length to ensure the smooth operation of business. In fact you might say this is essentially the primary purpose of U.S. legal system. As an example, one researcher looked at all the Supreme Court cases involving the 14th amendment between 1870 and 1940. The 14th amendment as you'll recall is an amendment focused on the individual equal protections people have under the law. I cannot r…

Correct, the US has an excellent legal system for the maintenance of property and commerce, but from the human point of view it is a disaster. After all, just considering the maintenance of racial disparities at the judicial level over several decades will tell that this is not a functioning system.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#122
post #45
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article, he did sneak off the ship routinely after it ran aground some years later. He would sneak off, buy food and recharge his phone, then return to the ship for some bizarre reason.

They had his passport, so it would have been difficult for him to leave and risking arrest by either the Egyptian or Syrian police.

A random Syrian, or someone 'without passport' is not going to raise any scrutiny in Egypt. Just a few handfulls of cash could have expedited his way to at least Lebanon.

There's something odd about this story because neither a passport nor money should have kept him there, unless there was literally some kind of watch for him, and/or the cash situation was really that extremely dire. That said, he was able to survive for 4 years so money had to be coming from somewhere.

I suggest that he was maybe being paid a tiny amount, and that he felt it'd be better to 'stick it out' as a nearly worthless cog, than to take a risky path home to what might be nothing anyhow.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right the US has rule of law for businesses. What about poor people? Not so much. See: civil asset forfeiture, being jailed for petty fines you can’t afford to pay, insane fees used by low-tax jurisdictions to fund their courts.

It’s certainly not perfect, I agree with your specific points. But it’s not even at all comparable with the third world. It’s vastly better to a degree that left me totally mindfucked for years after I moved to the first world.

It is much better if you're not the target of the system, which in the US means that you're white and/or middle class or better.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#124
Is there something that could be done by people otherwise uninvolved - like myself, or my fellow HN readers - to help the other ~250 people who are currently stuck in similar situations?

I don’t even know how to go about enumerating who those people are, their ships, or where they are anchored. With that information a well-organized and/or funded group could at least get someone out to these people to check on them, provide basic supplies, and perhaps some form of reliable communications.

A lot of problems seem insurmountable large and complex, and even this one seems so if your goal is to free these people of their legal liabilities - but if you set aside trying to solve the reason they’re stuck onboard these ships in the first place, providing basic humanitarian aid to them seems doable.

ETA: This looks like a good place to start - https://www.ilo.org/dyn/seafarers/seafarersbrowse.home

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#125
post #8

It is supremely unfair for the court to assign him full responsibility for the ship, but without any power over it. If the court were serious about the situation they should have handed the ship over to him entirely. He could then put the ship up on the market for whomever wanted to buy it or sell it to a scrapping company. If you think this would be unfair to the ships owners this is exactly the point. Force them to…

I don't know how collateral on a mortgage on a ship this size works. But I am pretty sure even if they handed it to him, he couldn't do anything with it because it would have a Lein on it. Your point still remains valid though.

> he couldn't do anything with it because it would have a Lein on it.

If he had title, then he could sell it. The lienholder, however, would have a claim on the proceeds of the sale.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#126
post #2

I don't understand why he couldn't just get on another ship and leave forever. Worst case you just never go back to that shitty country right?

Apparently his passport was confiscated[1] so he wouldn’t have been able to do so legally, nor return home even if he did manage to get on a ship. And if you work in international shipping it’s not very good for your career to be blacklisted from Egypt. [1] https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/chief-mate-strand...

I'm curious, if he did manage to get on a ship surely he'd be able to return home to Syria on a ship bound there?

I mean, if you're an American citizen heading home and you lose your passport on the walkway to board your plane in France... it's not like America's going to prevent you from entering, right?

Surely it's gonna take some time to verify who you are and fix the situation. But it's not like you're forever banned from your own country.

Leaving Egypt might have been too difficult logistically to pull off, but once he had I don't see any legal difficulty returning home.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#128
post #105
post #8

It is supremely unfair for the court to assign him full responsibility for the ship, but without any power over it. If the court were serious about the situation they should have handed the ship over to him entirely. He could then put the ship up on the market for whomever wanted to buy it or sell it to a scrapping company. If you think this would be unfair to the ships owners this is exactly the point. Force them to…

The problem was that this man >>signed<< a document where he agreed to be "legally bound to this ship"... So be careful before you are signing something...

Alternatively - if you're not in the Eygptian legal system - be careful of trying to make someone sign something they don't comprehend - in the US at best the contract will be invalidated and at worst you might be held responsible for any damages if it was your job to clearly communicate the rights the parties had w.r.t. the contract before signing.

That all said - that's a hard battle and one you're probably not going to win unless you a) don't be speak english or b) don't have full control of your mental faculties - "I couldn't be arsed to read the contract" is generally not a defense unless the contract goes out of its way to be intentionally misleading.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#129
post #2

I don't understand why he couldn't just get on another ship and leave forever. Worst case you just never go back to that shitty country right?

Nope, worst case you get blackmailed into being a sea slave until you’re no longer useful and dumped in the ocean to die.

Re: Stranded sailor allowed to leave abandoned ship after four years

#130
Folks - this is what we are outsourcing and externalizing.

When foreign entities are able to bid for a lot less, and pay a lot less, a lot of it has to do with the fact that they will not bother with 'end of life' for ships, or getting insurance, or worrying about the lives of people who are 'expendable'.

Those very nice buildings in Dubai come from some nasty labour practices.

If every piece of this puzzle from end-to-end were to have happened in a 'rich country' there'd be legal issues, PR/media, litigation, and a separate kind of bureaucracy altogether, meaning the 'alternative' for a lot of corporations is just 'wash their hands' of it, pay 1/2 the price, and get all the ugly parts 'off the books'.

We are to the point now where we have ample material surplus - we don't need any more 'plastic stuff from China' - it'd be worthwhile to start integrating a lot of 'off the books' stuff into trade deals. Ironically, it would be good for 'them' as well, because in chaotic, quasi-lawless systems it doesn't make sense for participants to invest in anything further ahead than what is in front of their noses (i.e. don't hate the Lebanese shippers for doing the only thing they can do to remain profitable, i.e. don't hate the player, hate the game) ... forcing some degree of transparency and accountability in these systems might raise prices a little bit, but the benefits would likely be immensely positive in the system overall.

It's nice that the story is made personal, about a real individual (think: that Tom Hanks film about someone stuck in international airport limbo) but that's not really the story here is it.

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