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Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

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Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#41
post #2

As someone who just set up Storj to backup my Nextcloud installation, I am very interested in this topic. Storj was a cheap alternative to AWS S3, and, at least out of the box, zero-knowledge encryption was easier, though I know there are ways to achieve zero knowledge encryption with any S3 provider. I hadn't considered Glacier, but I may look into it. Edit: One thing I liked about Storj was that geographic redundan…

The next blog post it's already there, have a look. It's basically about the incentives that could make in certain scenarios more profitable to never give back data to the one who purchased the storage.

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blockchain has neither a durability or availability SLA.

An SLA just gives you the right to fee reductions or potential compensation for downtime. And not all SLAs are created equal. Meanwhile, for example, many blockchains such as Bitcoin and Ethereum, have 100% uptime. Not 99.99%...100%.

"uptime" is such a weird concept when talking about decentralized networks as they are local-first and also build with many peers. And which "uptime" is being referred to here, read or write? If it's write, fees have definitely spiked at points to make it mostly useless for most people "using" it, but you can technically still write to it. And read is just always available as long as you have a copy of the data somewhere.

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#43

I've noticed the debate around (de)centralization always seems to focus on purely technical issues, or on economic issues (which are technicalities of another sort). In other words, it's always the following two points that are debated: 1. Economies of Scale 2. Network Properties (robustness, scalability, latency, etc.) It seems to me that a crucial element is missing from these analyses: organizational policy. All o…

Addendum:

I think I could get excited about FileCoin if it allowed me to pool storage with friends and colleagues. I've been wanting to have a distributed hacker-garage for a while [0].

Importantly, I want it to be independent of any cloud provider because (1) it's hard to freely experiment/prototype when you have to keep track of billing and (2) functional centralization makes the AWS/GCE admin de facto responsible for everything running under the account. This is great for large enterprises that want to virtualize their IT department, but it really goes against the grain for hackers, freelancers, and -- IMHO -- startup founders.

Returning to Filecoin, I feel like all the *coin ventures make the same fundamental mistake of over-estimating how much we care about money. I really don't care about pimping out my hard-drive for a couple of cents. I'm motivated by gains on the order of several hundred to a couple of thousand dollars. The counter-argument I usually hear is that there will be more interest in developing nations, but then I don't want to store my data in e.g. Pakistan. I want data for pet projects in my own hacker-garage, and I want production data close to the end-user.

/rant

[0] Incidentally, I'm working on a project to do exactly this. It's a way of clustering a set of computers over the internet to produce a virtual cloud. It would be super cool to use FileCoin as a block storage layer in this context, but restricted to the hardware we own.

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#44
IPFS is mostly fine technology for storing data in a content-addressable way.

FileCoin is, at best, an inefficient way to incentivize people to store your data in an imaginary trustless world. (At worst, it's an obvious scam.)

You can imagine any hosting provider offering regular IPFS hosting. Sign up on our website, send us a list of data to store, pay us money, and we'll guarantee you can get it back or you can sue us - same as the guarantees by any conventional hosting provider. This works fine and well without gluing Filecoin to it.

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#45
post #38

Is there any sensible study on those system's energy consumption?

Given that public clouds are ruthlessly optimized for efficiency and they don't have to perform trustless proof of anything, it's virtually certain that decentralized storage is less efficient in every way than centralized.

What does "virtually certain" mean here anyway? And on what scale are you imagining things?

Let's say the entirety of YouTube was decentralized in a way that every internet connected device plugged in to the wall starts sharing watched content to other viewers who want to watch that content. If it's your neighbor, they'll download it straight from you, via the closest router/hub. Suddenly the company's hosting is more providing a "core archive" of data, and every user becomes a edge node of that content. Internet providers can, if they chose, pre-share content they think will be popular, in order to speed up their own infrastructure, and so on.

I'm not saying this is bullet proof or anything, I just think you're too quick to dismiss it without really saying why you think it's impossible (or "virtually certain").

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#46
Not very interesting. There are ways to solve all of these concerns--no fees are paid during the first X months, nodes periodically tested for bandwidth, etc. etc. Just because the author didn't bother to think it through doesn't mean it's not straightforward.

The whole idea of a blockchain is reputation CAN be built up over time, because every transaction is recorded and there might even be incentives to associate nodes to show X nines of pool reliability.

Is it a bad idea to use this as your only source of storage? Of course. Is it less useful than AWS if you do large local burst queries? Of course.

But none of the concerns mentioned in the post are relevant. This can be cheaper than AWS because they charge an enormous markup, and this automatically provides worldwide replication and accessibility.

Amazon already erases books from Kindles, Google scans your Docs for blasphemy against Fauci, and both have been known to throw businesses off their services. In a few years it will seem crazy not to have an extra copy of your data on here.

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#47

I've noticed the debate around (de)centralization always seems to focus on purely technical issues, or on economic issues (which are technicalities of another sort). In other words, it's always the following two points that are debated: 1. Economies of Scale 2. Network Properties (robustness, scalability, latency, etc.) It seems to me that a crucial element is missing from these analyses: organizational policy. All o…

a classic essay discussing the real ground truth problems of decentralized anything is by Jo Freeman, called the tyranny of structurelessness [0].

though most of the punches land toward the end, it is a fascinating and short read, in which she dissects, with the sober disappointment of a former optimistic evangelist, exactly why structureless ("decentralized" before that term became vogue) movements are never what they claim to be, and indeed cannot be.

why? because structureless coordination of groups above a handful members doesn't scale beyond the achievement of the simplest kinds of goals, such as consciousness-raising (or, in crypto-promoter terms, spreading "adoption").

any group objective requiring specialization of labor, coordination of resources and responsibility inevitably succumbs to the insidious creep of informal, but officially disavaowed structural networks of insiders.

it is especially pernicious for newcomers, who have been heavily messaged about "decentralization" or "structurelessness" and engage themselves with the groups identity without any awareness of these cryptic back channel networks that actually govern its operation. only after they are committed do they slowly find out there really is a hierarchy and a command structure.

i highly recommend a quick read for anyone considering the merits of a given groups' claims of being decentralized.

[0] https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#48

I've noticed the debate around (de)centralization always seems to focus on purely technical issues, or on economic issues (which are technicalities of another sort). In other words, it's always the following two points that are debated: 1. Economies of Scale 2. Network Properties (robustness, scalability, latency, etc.) It seems to me that a crucial element is missing from these analyses: organizational policy. All o…

Addendum: I think I could get excited about FileCoin if it allowed me to pool storage with friends and colleagues. I've been wanting to have a distributed hacker-garage for a while [0]. Importantly, I want it to be independent of any cloud provider because (1) it's hard to freely experiment/prototype when you have to keep track of billing and (2) functional centralization makes the AWS/GCE admin de facto responsible…

I've been keeping my eyes on https://cobox.cloud/ - it's run by some very smart people who have had their brains in the decentralization (not blockchain) space for a while now.

The alpha already lets you do what you're talking about, but I haven't used it yet and so I can't speak to its current stability.

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#49
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that public clouds are ruthlessly optimized for efficiency and they don't have to perform trustless proof of anything, it's virtually certain that decentralized storage is less efficient in every way than centralized.

What does "virtually certain" mean here anyway? And on what scale are you imagining things? Let's say the entirety of YouTube was decentralized in a way that every internet connected device plugged in to the wall starts sharing watched content to other viewers who want to watch that content. If it's your neighbor, they'll download it straight from you, via the closest router/hub. Suddenly the company's hosting is mor…

I love P2P and I have been into it since the Napster days but it isn't feasible any more. The value of a random Internet device is actually negative because the complexity of wrangling it outweighs what little resources it could contribute. (See Spotify and Joost for examples.)

I assume all these decentralized storage systems are datacenter-based so I'm comparing random Chinese datacenters vs. FAANG datacenters.

Re: Filecoin, StorJ and the problem with decentralized storage (2019)

#50

Economies of scale in the cloud have one thing going for them: massive reliability. As someone responsible for my company's data, I cannot make a sound argument to convince management (or myself) to use anything but Amazon S3 (or Google or Microsoft) cloud. The data is simply too important to trust to a smaller entity. Maybe coin storage can boost Storj's reputation. And I certainly favor decentralization for Crypto.

So granted the durability and availability is better than centralized solutions, you'd go with the distributed/decentralized solution? If that's the case, I think you could argue that open source and distributed solutions are much easier to make more reliable than centralized solutions. With a centralized solution, you're stuck with trusting their reliability or implement some reusable API (or use some 3rd party's AP…

I don't see how this addresses the reliability claim. There's a big difference between explaining that the data is stored in a Google cloud with certified 11-nines reliability, versus stored on a N number of machines in multiple clouds with unknown specs.

How do I communicate the reliability of a distributed cloud that is essentially a collection of random servers? Is there a way that each of these server's reliability is accounted for by the high-level service?

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