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Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

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Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#41
> A variety of projects sounds like it could be engaging, but on the other hand, maybe I’ll get bored writing the same boilerplate over and over?

I've worked in a couple machine integrator shops (kind of a mix of product and consultancy, basically building products that the OEM can't build themselves) over the past decade. There have been lots of 200-800 hour projects from lots of customers. My takeaway has been that every project that's valuable enough to contract someone to do has at least one really interesting problem to solve. Every project also has some boilerplate to make it work, I don't think anyone gets out of that. Even tenured research professors have to write grant proposals.

> But I’m worried that being involved with shorter term projects means I won’t get the chance to gain _deep_ expertise in any one thing, which might hurt my future job prospects?

Shorter term projects mean that you're gaining adequate expertise to be productive in dozens of things. If asked "We're using the X stack to build a product that does foo, are you capable of working here and helping us?", and you can say "I've used the X stack to build something that does bar, and I did a project that mostly automated foo using stack Y, I'm confident I could do it with stack X", you're clearly ready to hit the ground running. If you can say that you've never used stack X or done foo, but have learned V, W, Y, and Z, and have not done foo but have been successful with similar projects like bar, baz, and qux, well, HR drones and hiring managers aren't always the brightest bunch but they're often capable of a small leap of faith like that. You're in a much better position than someone who's only ever used stack W to build baz, and doesn't know anything else.

Also, it's really hard to gain deep expertise with one thing if you're only building a small number of products. Early architectural decisions often mean that you're stuck with the first thing that worked, while on a ton of short projects you can figure out what does work and what doesn't. For example, as a controls engineer, I've had the opportunity to try at least a dozen ways of representing a machine operation or actuator. I've built systems that are inadequate and had to be extended with cludgy add-ons, that are too rigid and had to be forked into subtly different varieties, that are too flexible and bulky, and finally settled on a representation that really works well. It's kind of like being given the opportunity to do a complete rewrite of the software, except you're not writing quite the same software each time...highly risky at a product org, but at a consulting org you're basically expected to do that.

Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#42

Having been in a product org, a consulting org and having done consulting alone, I think: - The type of work you do is largely the same across all orgs - unless you're a specialist in some advanced field nobody else can do or you can convince someone in power that you know how to do the occasional cool project - Both can have long useless meetings. Product orgs' meetings will be crap about how the company is awesome…

I was the CTO of an R&D consulting company in Poland, and parent is mostly spot on. I disagree, however, about the way they describe in-house management vs giving engineers to the customer.

The only thing of real value in a software agency is the team. If your programmers get pissed off and move to another company, you are going to have to spend money to hire and onboard someone, and leave money on the table (you need engineers to fulfill your contracts). So, unless an agency's management totally sucks, they will put a lot of effort to keep their personnel happy. This means, for example, having decent project management (and that's kinda natural, as you tend to do a lot of projects). Second, working the engineers to the bone is very much _not_ in the interest of the agency – if you work super hard and burn out, the customer gets all the upside (project delivered), and the agency gets all the downside. So, a decent agency will be good at pushing back when the client tries to abuse their employees.

This is one of the reasons why we strongly preferred managing the work ourselves, and why we stuck to hourly billing (which is super annoying to most of the time, but it aligns the incentives in that regard slightly better than if you bill by the day).

If the agency is doing staff augmentation, the developers are mostly left to fend for themselves. This is problematic, as it makes the devs to (justly) wonder what is the agency doing to deserve their margins.

(Of course, your mileage may vary. Ours was a small shop with very senior people, and we were doing very interesting projects. Working at a huge Indian outsourcing company is going to be a very different experience.)

Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#43
I started out in consulting and at one point decided that I would no longer accept those sorts of jobs, for primarily one reason: at consulting gigs, I never[1] got to stick around long enough to experience the long-term consequences of my choices.

I started out consulting because I thought it would be a great way to learn a wide variety of things but it turns in order to actually, really, truly learn something, you need to stick around for a long time to see the long-term, second order consequences unfold.

Instead, I've now been in a few smaller product orgs, where I get many of the benefits of consulting (high pace, many hats, good compensation, lots of learning all around, wide array of technologies) except I also get to witness how everything ends up and what the fruits of my labour are.

Something else that I hadn't thought about until now is that in these smaller product orgs I also get the opportunity to build the culture and organisation from scratch – that was rarely something offered to me at the consulting gigs.

[1]: Of course, I shoudn't say never. Maybe once or twice were there opportunities to stick around for a long time, but they were rare in comparison.

Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#44

The Secrets of Consulting[1][2] sounds like a book you might appreciate in your current situation. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Consulting-Giving-Getting-Suc... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/566213.The_Secrets_of_Co...

Also Managing the Professional Service Firm By David Maister Helps understand how consulting type firms as a whole work

Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#46
As a person who moved from consulting to product and then back to consulting my take is

- product is long term , while consulting can be short or long term. There is no guarantees there.

- Product teams you have the freedom to chose and experiment, but in consulting you dont. Product has more number of innovations while consulting has very less or in my case negligible.

- Consulting pays you more but product gives you experience, knowledge and sometimes depending on the company pays you more.

- In life and career chose long term when possible and short term only when you are bored and need a quick change.

- Consultancy is all about customers and meetings. you need as some mentioned, lots of people skills. You can develop one , but it takes years of experience

- Personally I am moving back to product now from consultancy. You can always move and collect experience and make money. But always think long term and be obsessed about customer.

I may be wrong here but these are my personal opinions. Please take it with grain of salt

Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#47
I made this transition recently, and felt compelled to write about it. https://erik.wiffin.com/posts/missing-manual-professionalism...

One of the things I noticed is that all of the "how to be a good developer" books/blogs/etc felt much more targeted at product orgs - there's a real lack of "advice" for people working at agencies. That being said, maybe I just don't know where to look, and someone in this thread will point me in the right direction.

Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#48
post #33

Having been in a product org, a consulting org and having done consulting alone, I think: - The type of work you do is largely the same across all orgs - unless you're a specialist in some advanced field nobody else can do or you can convince someone in power that you know how to do the occasional cool project - Both can have long useless meetings. Product orgs' meetings will be crap about how the company is awesome…

Is there some prerequisites to get into consulting alone, e.g. having worked in a consulting org before ? What kind of profile are people expecting ? I have a pretty good tech generalist engineer profile, and I'm considering doing that while working part time on a personal project.

A lot of it is recommendations, networking, knowing the right people.

At the beginning I was very active in the startup community and that meant several small contracts with startups / small companies.

With my network growing (and ageing) with me, I started having contacts in bigger companies, which landed some contracts with FTSE 100 companies.

That translates to more experience which helps you land similar roles.

Re: Ask HN: Moving from a product org to a consulting org: What should I know?

#50
post #35

My take from experience and from what I've seen with friends: - Consulting is great for people with good people skills, but it can turn into hell if you haven't them. - It's very easy for experienced workers in some shops to take advantage of the "new meat", and basically shove you their work. Be on the look for that situation. If it happens run as fast as you can. - Find out who are the top performers, get as close…

These are great things to keep in mind. Thank you.
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