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How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

germantechjobs.de

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Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#61

Post by venj »

dcolkitt wrote: post #5
thanato0s wrote: post #4

Leaving in Germany for 6 years. Moved from France. What I'll say only concern Berlin. The interview process in startup can be more draining than that. Currently, it's more like 4 / 5 steps with (sometimes) 6+ hours homework. Yik. 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. Other than that the cost of living in Germany is quite low (lower in Berlin than in the South) and it's a very nice and stable country.

> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don'…

It's very hard to compare European and US salaries: in a lot of European countries, you have social security, unemployment and retirement coverage provided by the state and financed by taxes on the salary.

So you have a much lower net amount of cash, but you get real benefits that would be part of your negociation in the US.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#62

Post by wink »

lbrito wrote: post #14
sdevonoes wrote: post #8

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it…

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

Of course my sample size is limited, but except in some rare circumstances where I live (Munich) people don't just buy or build a house before they're 40-50 unless they got money from their parents. Even with a job in tech. The pay absolutely looks great when viewed from a perspective of having less, but if you're actually saving up for a house and want to stay here and not live somewhere remotely, it's really hard.

But this is one of the most expensive cities. You can be lucky and be living in a small town 50-100km outside and if you don't have to commute daily, it's completely reasonable to buy a house (on rates) in your late 20s.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#63

Post by sdevonoes »

dkyc wrote: post #12
sdevonoes wrote: post #8

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it…

Why's that? Saving 18k for 5 years would yield you 90k€, which would be an appropriate 20% down payment on the 450k€ house.

Let's do some simple (and probably wrong, but hey) maths:

- House price: 450K euro

- In Europe you usually need around 30% of the house in cash (20% for down payment and 10% for paperwork and the like). This means you need 135K euro saved. Saving 18K euro/year => you need to save money for 7 years

- Now you get a mortage for the 70% of the 450K euro (315K euro). Now depending on how much you want to pay every month, we get different outcomes. Let's say you are willing to pay 1500 euro/month of mortage: this means (roughly) you will be paying your house for around 17 years

- This all implies you will be earning 60K euro (or more) per year over the next 24 years of your life. Let's say you are at this moment 25 years old, so you'll get your house paid when you are 50.

This is the panorama for people who are supposed to be the top 10% tier in the society (in terms of gross income) in a country like Germany (but applies to any other western European country as well). Not bad, but not good either.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#64

Post by frockington1 »

sneak wrote: post #29
querez wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make a very decent living on an SWE salary in Germany, and still get to live in a social democracy with a stronger emphasis on "social" than the US (i.e., very solid public services like transportation, education or health care) with a work/life balance that's more strongly tilted in favor of "life" than the US, from what I understand. It's a trade-off, but it's worth it for many.

You'd have to tilt a lot more than what Germany does to make it worth it; equivalent healthcare in the US is only €15k in additional costs. (The messy healthcare situation the US is famous for only really affects the poor.)

Not too mention most US software engineers probably have healthcare provided by an employer

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#65

Post by wink »

adrianN wrote: post #23
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 5 years, that house might cost a bit more than 450k.

Or it might cost a bit less.

Prices have beeen going up steadily for the last 10-15 years. Maybe there was a single dip in 2008-2010.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#66

Post by dagw »

frockington1 wrote: post #48
madarcho wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few people buy a house outright. Mortgages make the ordeal a little more in reach. Now as to whether banks grant it or not is a different problem...

Do you know if Europe's negative rates have made mortgages more or less challenging to receive. I can see it going either way as any interest is better than negative bond yields but how much effort are you going to put in if a mortgage rate is suppressed as well?

At least in Sweden they have made the rules around getting a mortgage stricter and stricter over the past 4-5 years. The income requirements have gotten stricter, they're requiring that you put down more money up front and that you make larger monthly principal payments.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#67

Post by dcolkitt »

estaseuropano wrote: post #54
dcolkitt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don'…

You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual free weekends, many free public services, affordable healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany - 0€. If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with…

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been discussed many times. My question more was about within Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other professional fields.

Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled professions must make significantly more than SWEs.

For example in the US, bankers or lawyers are roughly on par with high-end SWEs. I'm would assume German bankers and lawyers are making well more than 60k. If that's the case, what incentive would talented Germans have to pursue software instead of other higher-paid careers? (I could be wrong on my assumptions, maybe skilled professionals in Germany are just much less compensated relative to the median worker in general.)

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#68

Post by alkonaut »

dcolkitt wrote: post #5
thanato0s wrote: post #4

Leaving in Germany for 6 years. Moved from France. What I'll say only concern Berlin. The interview process in startup can be more draining than that. Currently, it's more like 4 / 5 steps with (sometimes) 6+ hours homework. Yik. 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. Other than that the cost of living in Germany is quite low (lower in Berlin than in the South) and it's a very nice and stable country.

> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don'…

> Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?

Instead of... what? It's not like you can make 2x the salary easily by instead becoming something else. Salaries are pretty flat, if you want to make money you should invest in somethig or have your own company.

Also: I'm not sure it's' a good idea to pick jobs based on salaries. It's good to not worry about money at all (which almost no SWEs' need to). After that I'd recommend pursuing sommething one finds interesting.

Edit: I think there is a cultural difference in the US where one is expected to aggregate net worth/savings throughout one's career, for many reasons (ability to send kids to better schools, saving for rainy day e.g. sickness, ...). In a welfare state I don't have that priority. I wouldn't switch to a job paying 2x the money unless it's really a interesting job! Because there is almost nothing that 2x the money would do to my lifestyle, the future prospects or security of my family etc.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#69

Post by wink »

eloeffler wrote: post #9

I'm surprised the article says nothing about certifications and or degrees, only work experience. I don't work in Software Engineering but I would have assumed that - like anywhere else in Germany - a university degree is required more often than abroad. Or am I wrong about that?

Highly depends where you're interviewing.

I don't think I've ever shown my CS diploma anywhere before HR wanted a copy after signing the contract. Of course it was on the CV, but I am relatively sure it didn't influence them hiring me or not. (Got hired without CV as well...)

There are a ton of positions (especially with larger companies) that "require" a degree, and I don't know how many will skip that, but compared to 10-15y ago I see a lot more "requires a BSc or 3-5y of work experience" or something along the lines.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#70

Post by sdevonoes »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #49
carlmr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly: * physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay) * pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old con…

Most of the perks you listed like 6 week vacation and 35h workweeks are not the norm, not even for devs, but exception that some good companies offer. 25 vacation days per year and 40h plus overtime included sometimes are more the current norm for most dev positions on the market now.

While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).
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