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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#41

Post by Hard_Space »

rswail wrote: post #15
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…

I don't know. Even the constitution acknowledges the possibility of truths that are 'self-evident'.

I remember when the Guantanamo torture scandals emerged in the 2000s, how various political actors attempted to say 'Let's not get hot under the collar about this - let's put it on the table and talk it through.'

For me, there are some things that just don't warrant debate, and encompass such deep-seated truths about humanity that putting them up for debate is a repulsive and disingenuous act, as outlined in 'A Modest Proposal' . I agree with the parent poster that this is one of those cases.

EDIT: This was supposed to be a response to the parent comment of the one it got attached to (for some reason).

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#42

Post by pydry »

tompccs wrote: post #6
wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

I don't think anybody really supports/opposes the death penalty because of a rational analysis of facts and statistics. It's usually an emotive decision - the notion that "revenge must be taken" or that "life is sacrosanct". These are pretty core parts of people's identity and it is hard for them to let go.

Either way, stories (e.g. miscarriages of justice by an uncaring state) are likely a more effective way to convince in this controversy, not statistics:

https://digest.bps.org.uk/2016/02/23/why-is-it-so-hard-to-pe...

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#43

Post by mattmanser »

rswail wrote: post #15
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…

It isn't really over, even now it pops its head up now and again. There's probably more people who believe in it than you realize.

For example in the UK 58% of people believe that the death penalty should be allowed for some crimes (e.g. terrorist attacks). Only 32% oppose it (presumably with 10% undecided):

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/legal/articles-reports/2019/10/0...

So far from being the majority view, often anti-death penalty stance is the minority view but the political elite suppress it.

Let that really sink in, most of the comments here are very wrong in thinking the debate is over, with twice as many of the public still supporting it in a country where it's been abolished for over 50 years. Always remember to fight against capital punishment, the deal is not done.

I believe they do this as they understand the nuance better and realize that overall it causes more problems than it solves, so don't want to open that can of worms once it's shut. Looking back in history there's also significant political fallout every time someone is found innocent after their execution. Some hard-right politicians will band it around for easy points with their base, plus obviously the wider public too for more extreme crimes.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#44

Post by unyttigfjelltol »

riffraff wrote: post #13
nikbackm wrote: post #9

Even if there were no death penalty, spending 30+ years in prison while innocent does not seem like such a good deal either.

but it is possible that the sentence gets revised before you fo 30 years in prison. If you've been killed already, that is not going to help you much.

Incarceration also is irreversible as each of our time is finite. It should concern us when we downplay the risk of false incarceration, it also is unacceptable.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#45

Post by BrianOnHN »

donatj wrote: post #21
wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

I think there is a somewhat reasonable argument that a punishment should mirror the crime, and any less than inhuman and barbaric to the inhuman and barbaric lacks actual justice? I’m not saying I agree, I don’t personally support the death sentence, but if you’re actually interested in changing peoples minds it’s good to know where they’re coming from, and why they may not find your argument compelling. I personally…

People themselves choose death over long prison sentences [1]. Which is less humane is a matter of perspective.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#46

Post by neilwilson »

tompccs wrote: post #33
marcus_holmes wrote: post #24

[flagged]

49% of Brits would support the reintroduction of the death penalty. I suspect that the same is true across Europe and that you are living in a bubble. [0] [0] https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-dea...

Right up to the point where you explain what that means in practice.

As ever with polls it depends how you frame the question.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#47

Post by vs2 »

optimalsolver wrote: post #3

Of possible interest, Texas records death row inmates last words before execution. You can read them all here: https://www.tdcj.texas.gov/death_row/dr_executed_offenders.h... My favorite is Delbert Teague, Jr. who quoted the oath of the Knights of Solamnia from Dragonlance.

I really wish I hadn't open this link. So much grief and wasted lives.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#48

Post by Vhano »

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

inhuman and barbaric why? You sound intelligent so go on: why is it inhuman?

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#49

Post by reedf1 »

tompccs wrote: post #33
marcus_holmes wrote: post #24

[flagged]

49% of Brits would support the reintroduction of the death penalty. I suspect that the same is true across Europe and that you are living in a bubble. [0] [0] https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-dea...

And only recently this number dropped below 50%! Wow!

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#50

Post by capableweb »

monalmadmad wrote: post #22
spoonjim wrote: post #17

I have very strong beliefs about the death penalty. I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; that anything less than execution is a grave miscarriage of justice for a crime that is so horrible the mind cannot even wrap around it. I also think that pain should be part of the death penalty... that a murderer doesn’t deserve a quick and painless death but rather a healt…

> I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; That's such a twisted mind you have there.

I can somehow understand that argument, "Eye for an eye" and all that, kind of makes sense.

Later on is where things gets scary though, where even death is not enough and it needs to be agonized death!

> I also think that pain should be part of the death penalty [...] rather a healthy period of searing agony

It is beyond fucked up to not only wanting to execute people but also make sure they feel pain while doing so.

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