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SolarBatteryBitcoin

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Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#51

Post by Blumfid »

AYBABTME wrote: post #42
barathr wrote: post #7

I'd like to believe that something like this is possible, but I just don't get how this gets around the fact that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. Even if many Joules of renewable power get wasted during periods of overproduction (mid-day in the summer in California), other more worthwhile loads could be shifted to use that power, because today it's negative-pric…

On boats with extra solar, running a dump load when batteries are full often happens by producing fresh water (desalination) or heating up water. If useful dump loads are available (pumped water?) then it's a good idea but bitcoin mining is better than nothing I guess. However having bitcoin mining as defacto dump load would probably demotivate work needed toward creating useful dump loads. I'm also wondering what in…

Independently of this, bitcoin will never run on just dump load energy.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#52

Post by Nursie »

Blumfid wrote: post #49
erentz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does banning something do anything different? Say the USA bans Bitcoin mining due to concerns about its energy use. That doesn’t stop mining in China or elsewhere. On top of that the US now needs to set up an invasive investigation system for enforcing the ban within its own borders. Applies just as well to YouTube cat videos or any other poor use of energy in the digital realm. Banning YouTube in the USA doesn’t…

That would break bitcoin very fast. No american will continue to infest in bitcoin if the majority of miners is in china only

But the majority of miners are already in China...

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#53

Post by Blumfid »

dnautics wrote: post #9
barathr wrote: post #7

I'd like to believe that something like this is possible, but I just don't get how this gets around the fact that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. Even if many Joules of renewable power get wasted during periods of overproduction (mid-day in the summer in California), other more worthwhile loads could be shifted to use that power, because today it's negative-pric…

"every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else" Not really? Batteries have limited capacity so at the point where the grid cannot buy any and your battery is topped up, you're mining bitcoin.

And who will invest in batteries or other direct useful power usage if burning it through asic's is just making more money?

No one :(

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#54

Post by hparadiz »

lottin wrote: post #34
erentz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. This applies to so many things. Snapchat data center? YouTube using gigawatts to process and stream cat videos? On and on. It’s really hard to control what people do with energy. Much better to focus on ensuring its priced correctly and all it’s externalities are properly included in that price. Then we don’t have to involv…

Unlike Bitcoin, the Snapchat data centre isn't designed to waste as much electricity as fast as it possibly can. Bitcoin is designed to be wasteful, so don't be surprised if people takes issue with that.

Bitcoin isn't designed to waste energy. It's designed to auto regulate an increasingly more difficult mathamatical formula which is itself entirely separate from energy. It's humans that are essentially throwing electricity at it due to the high reward for doing so. Once equilibrium is reached there is no reason to throw more energy at it.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#55

Post by hparadiz »

_9omd wrote: post #28
zoshi wrote: post #15

The incessant snide comments expressing nothing but dislike for Bitcoin really don’t belong on HN. Not liking Bitcoin is fine, but if you don’t have anything to add just don’t comment. Every thread about Bitcoin on HN does not a dozen comments that it’s a waste of time and energy.

It's really pretty ridiculous and frustrating. I come here for intelligent discussion, and I agree it's okay if people don't like Bitcoin, but at least take some time to learn about it if you're going to argue. It's straight up denial at this point, because Bitcoin, Ethereum, and DeFi are securing and transacting billions of dollars every single day. It's not a question of if it works at this point, it does work! An…

I'd like to also bring up the Helium Network which is an entirely novel use of blockchain technology where Proof-of-work is done by being a LongFi transmitter and having other transmitters check each other's signals as a way to verify that it's actually up and working. Miners literally make money by running LongFi cell towers from their house. It's currently bootstrapping a LongFi cell network world wide and is already prolific in every major american city. If this technology could be applied to power generation or even cell service we could have a real decentralized network with no companies in charge.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#56

Post by danielmain »

lottin wrote: post #43
oleganza wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snapchat data center uses as much energy as needed to extract value from Snapchat-the-product. Same goes for employee's time invested in support, development and research. If Snapchat makes money, it attracts investing resources into it until marginal cost equals marginal revenue. Same for Bitcoin or literally any other human activity. Miners are not going to consume more energy than mined bitcoins are worth.

It seems that you're confusing allocative efficiency with cost efficiency. Anyway, the production costs of "a Snapchat" depend on the costs of inputs and the current state of technology. Specifically they are not a function of how much a Snapchat is worth in the market. Snapchat can increase the production costs arbitrarily, for instance, by wasting energy, and they could totally decide to waste as much energy as the…

I would like to add to your comment that the stupid algorithm called "mathematical puzzle" is just a brute force loop in order to find the nonce => nonsense waste of energy

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#57

Post by Hermio »

hparadiz wrote: post #54
lottin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Bitcoin, the Snapchat data centre isn't designed to waste as much electricity as fast as it possibly can. Bitcoin is designed to be wasteful, so don't be surprised if people takes issue with that.

Bitcoin isn't designed to waste energy. It's designed to auto regulate an increasingly more difficult mathamatical formula which is itself entirely separate from energy. It's humans that are essentially throwing electricity at it due to the high reward for doing so. Once equilibrium is reached there is no reason to throw more energy at it.

Sooooo how does that equilibrium should look like which stops the energy race?

Everyone can calculate bitcoins with equal effort? Or is it still an arms race on who can gather more resources (energy/asics)?

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#58

Post by nathias »

barathr wrote: post #7

I'd like to believe that something like this is possible, but I just don't get how this gets around the fact that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. Even if many Joules of renewable power get wasted during periods of overproduction (mid-day in the summer in California), other more worthwhile loads could be shifted to use that power, because today it's negative-pric…

and every Joule that was used somewhere else wasn't used for bitcoin mining

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#59

Post by nathias »

erentz wrote: post #17
barathr wrote: post #7

I'd like to believe that something like this is possible, but I just don't get how this gets around the fact that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. Even if many Joules of renewable power get wasted during periods of overproduction (mid-day in the summer in California), other more worthwhile loads could be shifted to use that power, because today it's negative-pric…

> that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. This applies to so many things. Snapchat data center? YouTube using gigawatts to process and stream cat videos? On and on. It’s really hard to control what people do with energy. Much better to focus on ensuring its priced correctly and all it’s externalities are properly included in that price. Then we don’t have to involv…

why would you like to control that, who do you think can establish what is a good use of energy?

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#60

Post by hparadiz »

Hermio wrote: post #57
hparadiz wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin isn't designed to waste energy. It's designed to auto regulate an increasingly more difficult mathamatical formula which is itself entirely separate from energy. It's humans that are essentially throwing electricity at it due to the high reward for doing so. Once equilibrium is reached there is no reason to throw more energy at it.

Sooooo how does that equilibrium should look like which stops the energy race? Everyone can calculate bitcoins with equal effort? Or is it still an arms race on who can gather more resources (energy/asics)?

The equilibrium is based on the hash rate difficulty which increases as more miners are added to the system. Miners can choose to jump into the system at any time with no restrictions. If a hash block is mined 'too fast' then the difficulty is increased proportionally. Of course as miners leave the network the difficulty also occasionally drops. The power needed to run these miners is entirely arbitrary. Just like how an old computer used more power for less computation so too is it possible for asics to get more efficient and there's ultimately a huge financial incentive to do so.

You can't block it or ban it. Like bittorrent it's nature is essentially to be free. Eventually someone somewhere will obfuscate the traffic just enough to get through any firewall or detection system. Ultimately the bitcoin network is actually low bandwidth so sending results from a miner is possibly even with garbage internet.

Even if you 'ban' it all you've done is banned exchanges from converting to and from fiat but anyone who already had bitcoin can go somewhere else in the world to trade it or simply trade it for cash in person. Any jurisdiction that does that will be just sitting out while the rest of the world moves on with the new world economy.

Complaining about bitcoin is peak "old man yells at cloud". Blocking or destroying the network is literally impossible short of destroying the whole Internet.

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