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The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

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Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#141
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea, but what would be the advantage of having, for instance, the javascript engine running as a system daemon? This reminds me of Windows Script Host, which was some similar idea but didn't make it. What we see instead are JITs or VMs such as the JVM, node or any other language (such as raku or julia) which just work standalone, in the same way as a browser does.

Is engine prob is better of a s a system lib. The Daemon are for stuff like service workers from pwa, they are already boardline apps(notifications for example). The biggest advantage of the system lib style is you can effectively share with native program. It also standard cross platform. A not so bloated nodejs and electron setup.

I agree with the system library, and this should be standard. A system library and a system daemon are two different concepts, thought. HTML engines as shared libraries were common in the past (thinking of KHTML or mshtml.dll) and still are (thinking of Qt WebEngine or WebKitGtk). They are not that popular any more because devs want to have 100% control about the concrete engine version and quirks, so they prefer shipping their own engine, as with Electron. I feel that there is a strong rejection against Electron-like application development/shipping.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something I had been pondering. Rather than making a new 'standard' based on a new technology and thus expanding the standards base with complexity, we can go the other way. Make a specification based on old tried and tested tech. Thinking something like a set HTML/CSS specs that can be implemented fairly easily. It is a spec that is essentially something a website can be built to knowing that end browsers/us…

| a set HTML/CSS specs that can be implemented fairly easily That could then be heavily optimized and used for cross-platform apps instead of the bloated, kitchen sink approach of Electron.

Exactly. It allows a lower bar for entry for new players. Thinking of things like KaiOS.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#143
post #134
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither Gopher nor Gemini are remotely close to being a replacement for the web, as neither support anything close to rich text or media. Gemini doesn't allow for embedding images in web pages - which makes it vastly inferior to the web for any kind of interesting documents. Imagine reading a research paper where, in order to view figures and equations, you had to follow a link to a separate object . No font control.…

> Gemini doesn't allow for embedding images in web pages - which makes it vastly inferior to the web for any kind of interesting documents. This statement is incorrect. Gemini clients can absolutely display inline images. The difference is that default behavior is to require a user action to load a resource. An image can be a link, but when a user clicks that link it can turn into an inline image. This is how clients…

> This statement is incorrect. Gemini clients can absolutely display inline images.

"clients" and "can" - it's not mandated by the spec, therefore, "Gemini" does not do it.

> The difference is that default behavior is to require a user action to load a resource.

Extremely non-conductive to thought. Again, take the example of a research paper - the difference between having every figure and formula appear by default and having to click-to-load is massive, with the latter being un-ergonomic and inhibiting comprehension and flow.

> These are all client-side features. Half the point of Gemini is for the user agent to determine presentation and leave semantic markup to authors. I don't want weird fonts or multi-column views, but you do; Gemini lets us both get what we want instead of having everyone see a one-size-fits-all presentation. Clients like Kristall even give you a TOC in the sidebar.

You can do exactly this same thing with the modern web with CSS styling and userscripts - the difference being that the web gives you saner defaults that are more conducive to thought, and Gemini clients seem to give you less-sane defaults that are less conducive to thought.

> blind, deaf

This is a limitation of being blind or deaf - someone who's blind wouldn't be able to view a sunset in real life. Obviously, though, while text can be read/listened to by someone who's blind or deaf, that doesn't make text a replacement for images, formulas, or interactive animations - those with those disabilities simply can't perceive the native forms of those things. Several hundred or thousand words describing a layout for a PCB is not equivalent with an image of the layout.

...and, modern webtech has accessibility properties that allow for annotation of non-text media with text. Gemini? Does not.

> machine (translation, etc)

False. Machines cannot understand plain text - it must be parsed. English (and other natural languages) are not machine-parseable, and machine-readable plain text had no reason to not exist as structured data in the first place.

> while being stored and transmitted without information loss.

All of the other kinds of electronic data that exist in the modern web can also be stored and transmitted without information loss, so this is not a special property.

> Text is good at knowledge dissemination.

Relative to text+formulas+images+interactive visualizations? Absolutely false.

Show me how to write out all of the variants of the Schrödinger Equation[1] in plain text, while still making it as readable, understandable, and useful as the mathematical formulas.

Show me how to phrase, in words, a 3D circuit layout, such that it's easier to understand and manipulate than an interactive model.

Show me how to describe the sound of a violin.

Webtech gives you text and images and sound and formulas and interactivity. Gemini gives you text, and that's it. Having to click a separate link to go to a separate object makes it not "part of Gemini" and the user experience is clearly, massively worse.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger_equation

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#144
post #24

It's great to see yet another attempt at writing a web browser --- and I say this as someone who has been (slowly) working on one myself. The browser is far from stable, spec-compliant, or even really useful, but, I'm slowly working on bringing more features and supporting more sites. When the specs are constantly churning in order to keep one gigantic company's browser an effective monopoly, maybe it isn't really th…

> When the specs are constantly churning in order to keep one gigantic company's browser an effective monopoly, maybe it isn't really that important to follow them so closely... The notion breaks as soon as your users want to use youtube or gmail, which for some mysterious reason keep insisting on using all these useless "standards" even though they have no benefit to the user.

> as your users want to use youtube or gmail

Yes, as long as a requirement is something those corps control, they'll essentially control you.

The answer is to ignore support for gmail and youtube and hope their reputation catches up to them - specifically youtube alienating creators and becoming yet another corporate on-demand television-clone.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Figma, docs, sheets. All great apps I can use for any device with a web browser. No install needed, no updates needed. Easy to collaborate with. No "install this application" just "open this url" Application delivery though the web browser is just hella convenient. It's really hard to give that up for some "native apps and static documents" utopian dream.

The idea of "web applications" is almost as old as the Web itself. Java Web Applets, Flash, Silverlight,... were all attempts to bring application functionality to the browser. Billions have been invested in this strategy. Why? Because desktop computing used to be a battlegrounds for commercial vendors in the late 20th century, and the goal was establishing market dominance. Being able to control who can run what on…

The fact that web applications are so old indicates the demand for such a delivery platform.

> Microsoft was so adamant on having Explorer bundled with their OS in order to establish control over the future evolution of web applications on the information highway. And they got famously burned for it in that 1999 anti-trust case.

Totally. Microsoft was using it to try control the web as a Microsoft platform. Hence their push for ActiveX over flash/applets/javascript.

> Vast amounts of resources have been poured into Chromium over the past two decades to bring that experience to billions. And it didn't happen out of sheer altruism on the part of Google.

At the time Chrome was started it was a more or less altruistic move from Google, from the user's perspective at least. Google was heavily reliant on the web for income and existing browser were slow, had widely varying standard support, and lots of security issues. Chrome forced their hands, by showing that a web browser can be fast and "secure."

Also at the time Google have a significant platform of their own. They would be at the mercy of the platform gatekeepers. So pushing an open platform that anyone can publish on was in their own interest.

Since then Android has taken off and Chrome has morphed into arguable spyware, but at its inception it was a good thing for users.

> Application delivery as you know it today is convenient, but that came at a price.

A price to whom though. To those who would try to lock down our platforms and seek rent over application delivery? I guess I don't really care about how much it costs them ;).

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#146
post #143
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gemini doesn't allow for embedding images in web pages - which makes it vastly inferior to the web for any kind of interesting documents. This statement is incorrect. Gemini clients can absolutely display inline images. The difference is that default behavior is to require a user action to load a resource. An image can be a link, but when a user clicks that link it can turn into an inline image. This is how clients…

> This statement is incorrect. Gemini clients can absolutely display inline images. "clients" and "can" - it's not mandated by the spec, therefore, "Gemini" does not do it. > The difference is that default behavior is to require a user action to load a resource. Extremely non-conductive to thought. Again, take the example of a research paper - the difference between having every figure and formula appear by default a…

> "clients" and "can" - it's not mandated by the spec, therefore, "Gemini" does not do it.

Prohibiting clients from loading inline images is not mandated by the spec either, so Gemini doesn't prevent it. Loading images inline is fine, as long as it's triggered by a user action. A core idea of Gemini is user control: network requests shouldn't happen without user consent just as presentation should be determined by the user agent.

Non-spec-compliant behavior is also fine if it's explicitly enabled by a user; the default should be spec-compliant.

> You can do exactly this same thing with the modern web with CSS styling and userscripts - the difference being that the web gives you saner defaults that are more conducive to thought, and Gemini clients seem to give you less-sane defaults that are less conducive to thought.

Try changing your browser's default background color and you'll end up seeing a bunch of pages with black text on a gray background. Change your browser's default text layout to two columns and see how many sites still work. The featureset of the web encourages authors to use those features, which begets complexity; complexity begets fragility.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "sane defaults"; The "default" HTML presentation is raw markup, and isn't exactly readable. The "default" Gemtext presentation is perfectly readable; in fact, all but two of the blog posts on seirdy.one were initially drafted in raw gemtext rather than markdown. Perhaps you were referring to the default stylesheets of the major browser engines. This is client behavior, and should be compared with existing Gemini clients that focus on presentation as well.

The web allows authors to dictate presentation and deliver content with visual branding; Gemini prevents this to make the focus on content rather than form.

> ...and, modern webtech has accessibility properties that allow for annotation of non-text media with text. Gemini? Does not.

Like the Web and Gopher, Gemini links have display-text. Image links are the same. I consume Gemtext with a screenreader quite regularly, and image consumption is much less painful than it is on the Web. Knowing that users will see text before an image encourages Gemini authors to use good alt-text and to only include images when they convey necessary information that text cannot. Superfluous images are virtually non-existent.

> Machines cannot understand plain text - it must be parsed. English (and other natural languages) are not machine-parseable, and machine-readable plain text had no reason to not exist as structured data in the first place.

That wasn't my point; my point was that text can be parsed and processed by machines much better than other forms of information, improving information dissemination.

> All of the other kinds of electronic data that exist in the modern web can also be stored and transmitted without information loss, so this is not a special property.

Unless you want to load a bunch of 5mb images, you're going to need re-sizing and lossy compression. https://xkcd.com/1683/

> Show me how to write out all of the variants of the Schrödinger Equation[1] in plain text, while still making it as readable, understandable, and useful as the mathematical formulas.

I admit that Gemini isn't great at mathematical formulae. Some people are working on Gemini clients that can understand LaTeX code fences.

> Show me how to describe the sound of a violin.

Include a link to an audio file so it plays when the user wants it to. Several clients can play inline audio and video.

---

Gemini isn't for everyone and everything, and that's kind of the point. It certainly doesn't seem like something meant for you, since you seem to be focused on research papers and apps. It's not trying to replace your OS, it's trying to be a part of it. Gemini also doesn't intend to replace the Web; it intends to focus on structured hypertext. The web became a steaming mess because of the feature overload you've described; the solution is to focus on being able to do fewer things and to restrict what's possible to prevent the same thing from happening.

I don't think we'll see eye-to-eye on this, because this looks like a value-based discussion on quality versus quantity to me when I don't think one is trying to replace the other. Alternatives aren't replacements; Gemini is an alternative, not a replacement.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#147
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure those sites break in Edge and Brave as well...

They break them on purpose so people will switch to Chrome. And the worst part is, there's no evidence (yet?) that there's malice behind it. Maybe we'll get a whistleblower at some point, but that'll only happen when their income no longer covers buying off their conscience.

Incompetent vs malice...

If they are close to the edge cases of the spec, just not testing on Firefox will break it. By negligence, rather than malice.

Re: The Hotdog web browser and browser engine

#148

Ultimately, pursuing a full-featured graphical web browser might not be the right approach for a volunteer-/hobby-driven project to develop a web browser. But it would absolutely make sense that a newly implemented terminal-based browser in Go (or any other memory-safe language) could/should replace Lynx and w3m. It's actually pretty surprising that there hasn't been a niche surge in websites specifically meant to wo…

This has been happening, just not really on the web. It’s more located on protocols like gopher[0] or Gemini[1]. Gemini in particular has quite a large amount of projects hosted on sourcehut, and sourcehut even serves pages on its new pages service to Gemini. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol) [1] https://gemini.circumlunar.space/

This is a comment advocating for Gemini (which is from the start a misguided endeavour) with no concrete examples of how the simple use case mentioned above (the straightforwardness (or not) of trying to use Sourcehut from the terminal) is actually solved in Gemini space.
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