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Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

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Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#51
post #45
post #33

~6 hours or just above it in general seems to be the sweetspot. Most negative effects (especially broad ones like all-cause mortality) only really start showing up under 6 (or over 7 hours)[0]. Too bad the majority of reporting exaggerates and starts scaring people for going under 8 (and sometimes 9!) when yet again it seems like 6-7 is likely best, with very little 'loss' between 7 and 6. Just don't go much lower th…

Your linked consensus statement recommends against under 7 or over 9 hours, and says 7-8 is "most favourable".

I already edited and answered in another comment. The actual studies (especially large meta-analyses) show very good results between 6 and 7, I was just thinking of linking this for the overrecomendation of 8-9 and copied it by mistake.

Though even here they try to reccomend more in the abstract than what their results suggest, so look at the actual results e.g. all-cause mortality.

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#52
post #11

More accurately, middle aged people who get less than 6 hours of sleep a night are 30% more likely to get dementia. I'd expect that people who get less than 6 hours of sleep are also more stressed and less health concious though.

Sure, I'd agree with the "more stressed and less health conscious" bit. But, the article does give some good reasons to suggest that either midlife insomnia is a very early symptom of dementia, or that sleep deprivation itself leads to dementia.

Nonetheless, we are talking about people who have pre-existing insomnia before being diagnosed with dementia. According to the Mayo Clinic[0], the most common causes of insomnia are:

* Stress.

* Disrupted circadian rhythms due to shift work or frequent travel.

* Poor sleep habits.

* Eating too much late in the day.

Further down the list are:

* Anxiety disorders.

* Medications.

* Other medical conditions.

* Sleep disorders.

* Caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol.

* Age (older people sleep less than younger people).

Of these, anxiety disorders; sleep disorders; and caffeine, nicotine, and alcohol seem the most interesting to me. Anxiety disorders probably have an effect much like that of chronic stress, except that simple chronic stress generally goes away eventually. Sleep disorders seem interesting because we have some evidence that sleep serves a function related to brain health, but, really, we don't know exactly what sleep does for us. And, alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine are interesting because the former two carry their own, independent health risks. Caffeine is interesting because, of course, it is active in the central nervous system, and it actually shows some limited evidence for a protective effect against Alzheimer's disease. [1]

Cross referencing that with the list of things they control for ("age (timescale), sex, ethnicity, education, marital status, alcohol consumption, physical activity, smoking status, fruit and vegetable consumption, BMI, hypertension, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, GHQ depression, and CNS medications"), we can (lightly) cross age, nicotine, and alcohol off the list of interesting things.

All this makes me wonder if either insomnia is an early dementia symptom, as they suggest, or if one of the causes of insomnia is the instigating factor. And, it seems to me the most interesting causal factors for insomnia left on the board are anxiety and stress.

Oh, and guess what? Anxiety, stress, and PTSD have been independently linked to the development of dementia! [2]

To me, that's interesting because anxiety is known to impair both working memory and cognitive processes[3], things which are both impaired in dementia.

I don't mean to suggest that anxiety and stress cause dementia all by themselves, but I do think this might point to a more significant role for anxiety and stress than is typically considered these days.

Anyway, these are just some idle thoughts from someone who is neither a doctor, neuroscientist, nor biological researcher of any kind. If anyone has anything else to add, or would care to riff off this, I'd love to see it. ---

[0]: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/insomnia/symp...

[1]: https://content.iospress.com/download/journal-of-alzheimers-...

[2]: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/blog/there-link-between-stress...

[3]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anxiety-fear-and-hat...

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#53
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not doubting anyone's personal experience, but to add another anecdotal data point: Kids weren't as disruptive to sleep as I expected after reading horror stories online. The way the internet talks about child raising sometimes makes it feel like martyrdom, but the internet tends to focus on worst-case stories and people venting about uniquely bad situations. It's almost taboo to share positive stories when other par…

I’m expecting my first child in June and have sort of been preparing for misery when it comes to sleep. I appreciate you sharing this.

Whatever happens, know that it's ultimately not only up to you. There's quite a bit of luck involved how they are able to cope with the environment and what sleep pattern they prefer.

And OT but relevant for every new parent, sorry for giving unsolicited advice. But always remember, whenever it gets tough: "They're not giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time!". That helped me better understand that it's our job to help them through whatever crazy thing they're going through at any given time.

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#54
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other forms of dementia than Alzheimer's.

Are there causal analyses of sleep on those other forms of dementia?

I'm not well versed on different kinds of studies... could you explain the differences between "causal analysis" and whatever the study linked in the article is? They mention a longitudinal study and that the "finding was confirmed in analysis using sleep duration measured by an accelerometer."

I assume a causal analysis would also determine the direction of the causality, e.g. if it turns out that people predisposed to dementia have more trouble sleeping in middle age. That definitely seems like a tall order and probably not exactly what the linked study can answer.

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#55
post #7

Unless it's an emergency, I've ALWAYS prioritized sleep. It's just too important for health regardless of these latest findings. I'd call in to work if I didn't get a full nights rest in the past, it's not worth feeling like shit for the rest of the day. The culture of glamorizing working longer and harder till early hours of the mornings on zero sleep, has always been nonsense. Musk is notorious for bragging about t…

Well, many people don't sleep enough because they cannot. Insomnia is common in midlife.

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#56
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Elon Musk looks his age, and looks pretty ok for a 49 year old. Granted he has money, and he's had hair transplants, but I've seen many late 40s early 50s people in much worse shape.

IME, the biggest predictor for people looking younger than their age is exercising and avoiding alcohol. I'm sure sleep is in there since people who do the other 2 normally also sleep ok.

Sleep is in there, trust me. I'm 29 and look 40.

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#57
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not doubting anyone's personal experience, but to add another anecdotal data point: Kids weren't as disruptive to sleep as I expected after reading horror stories online. The way the internet talks about child raising sometimes makes it feel like martyrdom, but the internet tends to focus on worst-case stories and people venting about uniquely bad situations. It's almost taboo to share positive stories when other par…

I’m expecting my first child in June and have sort of been preparing for misery when it comes to sleep. I appreciate you sharing this.

Good luck bud. Better to be prepared for misery just in case.

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#58

So, anyone with kids is probably going to have dementia?

If you are 5%-8% likely to get dementia as a baseline, but don't sleep enough, you're now 6.5%-10.5% likely to get dementia.

Out of 1000 people who live to be over 70 and sleep properly, ~65 of them get dementia.

Out of another 1000 people who live to be over 70 and sleep improperly, ~80 of them get dementia.

So an extra 15 people out of 1000 get dementia in the "sleep improperly" group.

Someone please check my application of natural frequencies!

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#59
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just half of the picture. My kids are older but they have a talent to get up at 6 in the morning on weekends. And need to get up at similar times for school during the week.

If you have kids getting up at 6 for school and you haven't adjusted your sleep schedule to match, isn't that kind of on you now?

How does one do this? Parents get up at 6 to get their kids ready for school. Then take the kids to school, shower, have breakfast and then work until 6. Picking up the kids at some point in there. Then make dinner, family time and then kids go to bed at 8 or 9. Now you have the option of going right to sleep which is fine if you desire no personal time / partner time. But if you have your own hobbies or goals then you spend a couple hours on those and bang you are sleep deprived.

Re: Association of sleep duration in middle and old age with incidence of dementia

#60
post #41

So, anyone with kids is probably going to have dementia?

They paradoxically define "midlife" as "50s and 60s" so for most people, no.

Yeah, that seems kind of silly to me as well. I don't claim to speak for them, but what I think the researchers were getting at was "right before Alzheimer's symptoms typically appear," including mild cognitive impairment.
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