US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer • Hacker News Board

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#121

Post by mandevil » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #114

Joe8Bit wrote: post #17

Lots of people have talked eloquantly about the monetary greed the Super League entailed, but I think it misses the wider point, Kronke (et al) have long been pushing for a _redistribution of power_ in football, away from the 'leagues' (e.g. the Premier League, La Liga, UEFA) to the clubs and owners themselves. Which is the now the canonical model for US sports, where they're most comfortable. Another example of this…

If the US had relegation from baseball and football it would improve the sport. At the moment there is no penalty for coming last in the AFL or NFL :-) oh and next year you have first pick of the best new players

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_le...

The NFL, MLB, and the NBA are all higher revenue sports than the EPL. Even the NHL brings in more revenue than every other sports league than the big 3 North American sports + EPL- 30% more than La Liga or Bundesliga. So if revenues for sports without relegation are so much greater than the revenues for sports with relegation, why would it improve the sport?

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#122

Post by throw_nbvc1234 » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

solidasparagus wrote: post #102

kasey_junk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the NFL distributes all TV money equally to all teams as well even though no one in Malaysia wants to watch Tampa Bay. Further most of that money goes to the players not the club owners. How do you square that with your thesis?

There's only 32 NFL teams and even when the crappy ones play internationally, they draw huge crowds. And that's because it's a closed circuit so the level of play of the worst teams is much higher than the worst teams in European football. The NFL as a league is also designed to have a much higher degree of parity than European football. There are also fewer games, which increases the importance of each game. These r…

The "draft" plays a role in this too where the worst teams, in theory, get the best players further increasing the chance of parity. Unless those terrible teams are terrible because their management sucks and just repeatedly make terrible decisions over the years.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#123

Post by barbazoo » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

zelos wrote: post #81

rizz0 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Club != Owners. The club is the people, the owners own the shares of the company. Your comment frames the situation as a "League Owner" vs "Club Owner" power struggle. That struggle is real, but it ignores the critical aspect that makes European football appealing: European football is about the clubs, the communities they represent, and cultural rivalry between communities. In essence Man City is Man City because th…

> the communities they represent, and cultural rivalry between communities. This has always confused me: what's the connection between the community and the club? How does Man City 'represent' Manchester?

From my experience, clubs are much more connected with the community in Europe. Where I'm from, you'd have sports clubs that offer different sports at different levels. In Germany you'll find a "Sportverein (SV), Fussballclub (FC), Turn- und Sportgemeinschaft (TSG), etc" in almost every town. If it's a generic club, they'll have many sports. Eintracht Frankfurt for instance has a Bundesliga football team but they also have amateur football teams, handball teams, hockey, etc. Towns often have more than one sports club so there connection to "your" club as well.

So there is a direct connection between your town and the sports club. It's the place where you sign your kid up to participate in team sports. Independent clubs aren't really a thing in Europe, for instance Bayern Munich is the team from Munich. They'll probably never be based in Berlin just because they're making them a better offer. Local clubs often have a long history, too. It's not uncommon for a local sports club to be over a hundred years old as well (TSG 1899 Hoffenheim, founded in 1899).

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#124

Post by speeder » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

rkangel wrote: post #106

This article presents a simplistic "UK football good, American football bad" viewpoint, but there some aspects to how the NFL is run that are desirable. Primarily here I'm talking about negative feedback. In the Premier League (as well as Formula 1, for example) there is positive feedback that keeps the top teams at the top. Being successful means that you make more money (whether directly through prize money, or ind…

Dunno about primier league but F1 not only put caps but also made some inverse feedback rules.

For example now the rules are that your usage of wind tunnels is bigger the closest you are to the last place, while the first place in the ranking doesn't matter how much money they are willing to spend with wind tunnels, they are heavily capped.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#125

Post by barbazoo » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #111

zelos wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the communities they represent, and cultural rivalry between communities. This has always confused me: what's the connection between the community and the club? How does Man City 'represent' Manchester?

Some clubs are majority owned by the fans.

I don't think that's it. For fans, whether you "belong" to a club has nothing to do with money. It more what city you were born in, what games did your parents take you to when you were young, what trading cards did you own when you were a child or who were your idols when you played football as a kid, things like that.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#126

Post by NoOneNew » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

rkangel wrote: post #106

This article presents a simplistic "UK football good, American football bad" viewpoint, but there some aspects to how the NFL is run that are desirable. Primarily here I'm talking about negative feedback. In the Premier League (as well as Formula 1, for example) there is positive feedback that keeps the top teams at the top. Being successful means that you make more money (whether directly through prize money, or ind…

I think that's why the golden era of Man Utd (last 15ish years with Fergie at the helm) wasn't that good for American fans. Yea, it brought in some (me)... but after a while, I found myself not caring about seeing a game if it wasn't against Chelsea or Liverpool. Even then... After 2 years of that... whoopie... Man Utd got another win against, oh look an ant is struggling to carry a cookie crumb.

That and diving. Seriously, fuck FIFA and all the EU leagues. They cant figure out how to deal with diving and playing for time, I cant figure out why I should care. It's painful to watch any sport where grown men fake getting hurt. The cringe is far more damaging than the love taps they whine about. Rugby and hockey have that shit figured out, why cant they?

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#127

Post by Plasmoid2000ad » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #119

rkangel wrote: post #106

This article presents a simplistic "UK football good, American football bad" viewpoint, but there some aspects to how the NFL is run that are desirable. Primarily here I'm talking about negative feedback. In the Premier League (as well as Formula 1, for example) there is positive feedback that keeps the top teams at the top. Being successful means that you make more money (whether directly through prize money, or ind…

> This makes the sport more interesting to watch as a fan - it's not the same few contenders year in year out. I don't understand - isn't this backwards? It is the same few contenders in the NFL every year isn't it? But it isn't in the English football leagues where teams relegate and promote every year. When did a team last join the NFL? 2002? And before then? 1996? I think beyond that you're possibly talking about…

Sounds like it depends on your viewpoint. Neither are fair and fully open.

Premier League and La Liga are dominated (to different extents) by the top teams, but are otherwise open for any team to reach and win.

NFL is closed to new entrants, but apparently more fair and competitive for all members for that closed group.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#128

Post by mandevil » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #113

JohnBooty wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love those stories and agree they are fun, but aren't they also very money-oriented most of the time? I know for example Cardiff City's renaissance and brief promotion to the Premier League corresponded with an influx of foreign cash. That's undeniably massive fun for supporters of Cardiff, but decidedly un-fun for teams that did not receive such an infusion of money, and in the end it doesn't make me too jealous o…

Not Leicester, as far as I know.

After briefly being relegated to the third tier (for just a season, first time ever) for a season, they immediately bounced back up to the second tier in 2009-10 and then they were bought by Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha, a Thai travel and retail billionaire and started their rise to the top of the Premier League.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#129

Post by randomsearch » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

rkangel wrote: post #106

This article presents a simplistic "UK football good, American football bad" viewpoint, but there some aspects to how the NFL is run that are desirable. Primarily here I'm talking about negative feedback. In the Premier League (as well as Formula 1, for example) there is positive feedback that keeps the top teams at the top. Being successful means that you make more money (whether directly through prize money, or ind…

That’s an argument for financial regulation, which we have in part in the U.K., not ruining sport by turning it into a theme park.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#130

Post by watwut » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #20

thewarrior wrote: post #11

I found it interesting how everyone agreed that football should not be run solely for profit and fans need to have a say in how clubs are run. It United both Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn. But applying the same sentiment to corporations seems controversial.

Equally I could say that football is, and should remain, a private activity, which governments should leave well alone. If fans want to buy or create and run football clubs they are free to do so. If private investors want to invest in football and buy or create and run football clubs they are free to do so. I don't think there should a way football 'should' be run, again I think this is a private activity that may b…

The sport in general and football in particular were historically subsised by goverments. Quite a lot in some places.