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“They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

lore.kernel.org

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Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#331

Post by protomyth »

duncaen wrote: post #221
bluGill wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the IRB is any good the professor doesn't get that. Universities are publish or perish, and the IRB should force the withdrawal of all papers they submitted. This is might be enough to fire the professor with cause - including remove any tenure protection they might have - which means they get a bad reference. I hope we hear from the IRB in about a year stating exactly what happened. Real investigations of bad con…

See page 9 of the already published paper: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/QiushiWu/qiushiwu.github.i... > We send the emails to the Linux communityand seek their feedback. The experiment is not to blame any maintainers but to reveal issues in the process. The IRB of University of Minnesota reviewed the procedures of the experiment and determined that this is not human research. We obtained a formal IRB-exempt lett…

The IRB of University of Minnesota reviewed the procedures of the experiment and determined that this is not human research.

How is this not human research? They experimented on the reactions of people in a non-controlled environment.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#332

Post by michelpp »

incrudible wrote: post #301
WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #291

I just want you to know that this is extremely unethical to create a paper where you attempt to discredit others by just using your university's reputation to try to create vulnerabilities on purpose. I back your decision and fuck these people. I will additionally be sending a strongly worded email to this person, their advisor and their whoever's in charge of this joke of a computer science school. Sometimes I wish…

I completely disagree with this framing. A real malicious actor is going to be planted in some reputable institution, creating errors that look like honest mistakes. How do you test if the process catches such vulnerabilities? You do it the just the way that these researchers did. Yes, it creates extra homework for some people with certain responsibilities, that doesn't mean it's unethical. Don't shoot the messenger.

It is unethical. You cannot experiment on people without their consent. Their own university has explicit rules against this.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#333

Post by garyfirestorm »

s_dev wrote: post #325
macspoofing wrote: post #290

Linux maintainers should log a complaint with the University's ethics board. You can't just experiment on people without consent.

I'm not sure it is experimenting people without consent. Though it's certainly shitty and opportunitstic of UoM to do this. Linux Bug fixes are open to the public. The experiment isn't on people but on bugs. I would be like filing different customer support complaints to change the behavior of a company -- you're not experimenting on people but the process of how that company interfaces with the public. I see no wron…

UoM generally refers to University of Michigan. You probably meant UMN.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#334

Post by kortex »

alxlaz wrote: post #259
bluGill wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the IRB is any good the professor doesn't get that. Universities are publish or perish, and the IRB should force the withdrawal of all papers they submitted. This is might be enough to fire the professor with cause - including remove any tenure protection they might have - which means they get a bad reference. I hope we hear from the IRB in about a year stating exactly what happened. Real investigations of bad con…

This is, at the very least, worth an investigation from an ethics committee. First of all, this is completely irresponsible, what if the patches would've made their way into a real-life device? The paper does mention a process through which they tried to ensure that doesn't happen, but it's pretty finicky. It's one missed email or one bad timezone mismatch away from releasing the kraken. Then playing the slander vict…

> there are many other ethical and legal requirements to academic research besides Title 45.

Right. It's not just human subjects research. IRBs vet all kinds of research: polling, surveys, animal subjects research, genetics/embryo research (potentially even if not human/mammal), anything which could be remotely interpreted as ethically marginal.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#335

Post by beshrkayali »

This seems like a pretty scummy way to do "research". I mean I understand that people in academia are becoming increasingly disconnected from the real world, but wow this is low. It's not that they're doing this, I'm sure they're not the first to think of this (for research or malicious reasons), but having the gall to brag about it is a new low.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#338

Post by smnrchrds »

macspoofing wrote: post #290

Linux maintainers should log a complaint with the University's ethics board. You can't just experiment on people without consent.

According to duncaen, the researchers had gotten the green light from the ethics board before conducting the experiment.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26888978

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#339

Post by koheripbal »

s_dev wrote: post #325
macspoofing wrote: post #290

Linux maintainers should log a complaint with the University's ethics board. You can't just experiment on people without consent.

I'm not sure it is experimenting people without consent. Though it's certainly shitty and opportunitstic of UoM to do this. Linux Bug fixes are open to the public. The experiment isn't on people but on bugs. I would be like filing different customer support complaints to change the behavior of a company -- you're not experimenting on people but the process of how that company interfaces with the public. I see no wron…

I'm not sure which form of ethical violation this is, but it's malicious and should be reported.
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