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US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

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41–50 of 234 posts

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#41

I found it interesting how everyone agreed that football should not be run solely for profit and fans need to have a say in how clubs are run. It United both Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn. But applying the same sentiment to corporations seems controversial.

Private run corporations tend to add a lot of value to society. Private run football clubs not so much, people prefer their amateur run clubs. You could say the first sentence isn't true, but that is what people think and why they voted like this.

Value is a highly subjective term. Some claim that social media companies don’t add value. But they continue to thrive. Even tobacco companies are only dying because of extensive regulation. They add short term value maybe. But in the long term many dont. And by the time they die the damage is done.

There are also counter factuals. The value a corporation prevents from being created due to monopolies or lobbying. That cannot be measured and maybe greater than the value added.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#42
post #17

Lots of people have talked eloquantly about the monetary greed the Super League entailed, but I think it misses the wider point, Kronke (et al) have long been pushing for a _redistribution of power_ in football, away from the 'leagues' (e.g. the Premier League, La Liga, UEFA) to the clubs and owners themselves. Which is the now the canonical model for US sports, where they're most comfortable. Another example of this…

But the NFL distributes all TV money equally to all teams as well even though no one in Malaysia wants to watch Tampa Bay. Further most of that money goes to the players not the club owners. How do you square that with your thesis?

Speaking as someone from Malaysia, I would love to there be an easy way to watch NFL games here.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#43
post #5

It's funny how they jump to blaming the Americans. Last I checked the Spanish clubs in this scheme weren't run by Americans.

I think it's less about specific Americans (e.g. owners of several of the English teams involved) and more about the American style of running league competitions — e.g. without promotion/relegation.

In the "American system", in most major sports, individual players (and coaches, effectively) are relegated and promoted between the big league and smaller developmental leagues all the time. I don't love the American system but a failure to ensure that our top talent plays in the top leagues is not one of its deficiencies.

In terms of meritocracy, I'd say it works at least as well as the European system.

As an American I would admit a preference for the promotion/relegation model but when I look at how a league like the English Premier League functions I don't find much to be jealous of. It's basically just a contest to see who has the most money... the teams with huge amounts of cash win nearly every year. Greed wins. And the fat paychecks for Premier league teams assure that the rich stay rich. It's hilarious to think of Man U being relegated because it could happen but c'mon, it's not.

The main difference is that Euro football leagues give the illusion of adhering to the sport's amateur roots. Theoretically your local town's team could play its way up to the Bundesliga or the EPL and win it all. However... that is basically an illusion. Occasionally a team like Cardiff City fights its way up to the Premier League, takes a beating, and sinks back down to the Championship League. They never really have a chance. Once per century you get a Leicester-style miracle, which is extremely cool but it's the exception that proves the rule.

Basically both systems are nearly equally ugly but the American one is more honest in most regards.

However I will agree that the proposed Super League is a terrible idea. The Champions League is special because it pits the best against the best every single year. That will be much less true for the Super League.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equally I could say that football is, and should remain, a private activity, which governments should leave well alone. If fans want to buy or create and run football clubs they are free to do so. If private investors want to invest in football and buy or create and run football clubs they are free to do so. I don't think there should a way football 'should' be run, again I think this is a private activity that may b…

Well there is always the is-ought problem. And we get around that via social consensus. There was nothing really wrong with the super league idea from a pure capitalist perspective. In fact according to neo liberal capitalist logic this is the best way to run anything including football.

Many major clubs have had issues with the way the Champions League works for years and it is a well-known problem. The ESL is just the latest symptom.

It's not ideological or "neo liberal capitalist logic", though I agree this is mostly a business problem.

But even at a more basic level this is about liberty. I don't see a fundamental difference between clubs wanting to set up the ESL and people in a town wanting to set up a tournament among them of whatever sport or legal activity they please. The State has no business interfering.

Now of course the fans (as fans and customers) can equally make their voice heard and vote with their feet if they are not interested.

My only concern here is this attempt by the government to dictate how football should be run.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#45
post #7

football without promotion and relegation is not football, i never understood the American style of "closed leagues". If you can't deal with relegation, don't play a game.

Not that I'm a defender of either system but US teams don't promote or relegate as a whole. Rather, the players move up or down between minor and major league teams.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#46
post #5

It's funny how they jump to blaming the Americans. Last I checked the Spanish clubs in this scheme weren't run by Americans.

The Spanish club Real Madrid is mentioned: > But Kroenke, Henry and the Glazers, believed to be the ringleaders of the Super League fiasco along with Real Madrid’s Florentino Perez, badly miscalculated.

I think his point is that a lot of people are blaming the Americans for this when the 2 largest and greediest clubs in the world are "run" by fans. So it has nothing to do with the Americans, it's that European football has become so greedy at the top.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#47
post #7

football without promotion and relegation is not football, i never understood the American style of "closed leagues". If you can't deal with relegation, don't play a game.

It’s the difference between a sport and something designed to look like a sport but in reality is just entertainment

Super Bowl being closer to WWF than a competition explains so much, thanks!

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equally I could say that football is, and should remain, a private activity, which governments should leave well alone. If fans want to buy or create and run football clubs they are free to do so. If private investors want to invest in football and buy or create and run football clubs they are free to do so. I don't think there should a way football 'should' be run, again I think this is a private activity that may b…

Well there is always the is-ought problem. And we get around that via social consensus. There was nothing really wrong with the super league idea from a pure capitalist perspective. In fact according to neo liberal capitalist logic this is the best way to run anything including football.

And belief neoliberalism is starting to crack, which is why there was such widespread negativity to this announcement. People have realized that neoliberalism is just a way to funnel wealth and power into the hands of the few, and surprise they don’t like that.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#49
post #2

IDK about the rest of Europe but in Spain soccer is highly tied to local cities/towns and lesser cathegory leagues, as if the big soccer teams were built up from the smallest grounds. Trying to convert that into a "Hollywood" soccer kind with "fireworks", elitism and expensive/luxury consumerdom/PPV like is the recipe for a disaster and to dis-joint the huge regional fandom of each team. On major events such as final…

Barca and real Madrid are two of the richest sports franchises in the world. Look at all uefa champions. They are all the big spenders. It's already a system of the haves and have nots.

> Barca and real Madrid are two of the richest sports franchises in the world

In addition, it's also worth pointing out that those two clubs are also massively in debt:

https://www.football-espana.net/2021/01/27/real-madrid-accou...

https://www.football-espana.net/2021/01/25/barcelona-on-the-...

If (when?) this new league falls through it'll be interesting to see what happens to big clubs like these that, despite all their success and big brand, might have been relying on this extra money to see them through.

Re: US owners find greed doesn't play well in European soccer

#50
post #17

Lots of people have talked eloquantly about the monetary greed the Super League entailed, but I think it misses the wider point, Kronke (et al) have long been pushing for a _redistribution of power_ in football, away from the 'leagues' (e.g. the Premier League, La Liga, UEFA) to the clubs and owners themselves. Which is the now the canonical model for US sports, where they're most comfortable. Another example of this…

As an American, not having 15 leagues with the worlds best players spread out seems like a great idea. I'd rather watch the worlds best players play each other every week than have to wait a full year for the Champions league
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