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Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

ethereumcashflow.com

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Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#171

Post by ur-whale »

meowkit wrote: post #36
ur-whale wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the only major cryto with the property of fungibility Yes agreed. Both Bitcoins and ETH tokens can be "tainted" and that taint takes for ever to "diffuse" in the chain. This makes some Bitcoins/ETH less valuable than others. For example, most valuable Bitcoins are newly mined coins (they have no history), whereas a - say - Bifinex hacked Bitcoin carries a pungent smell.

Remember when we called laundering money that because laundromats were used? Just tumble your coins! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocurrency_tumbler

> Just tumble your coins!

Much easier said than done:

   - it costs money
   - most tumblers aren't safe at all (who's to say they aren't operated by the govt or that they don't keep logs)
   - in some cases, you might not get your coins back at all
Coinjoin for BTC is a better approach, but it's also far from easy to use (need a special wallet) and is basically useless until it sees mass adoption.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#172

Post by ObserverNeutral »

dmihal wrote: post #151
lottin wrote: post #10

The fact that something is scarce doesn't make it a store of value. Scarce simply means is in short supply, but prices aren't determined by supply alone, they are determined by supply and demand. Moreover, if an asset is in fixed supply, then its price is determined entirely by the demand. This means such an asset will only be a store of value if the demand for the asset remains strong over a long period of time, whi…

Exactly, Ethereum is a better Store of Value than Bitcoin, not only because it is scarce, but because it provides utility, which creates demand. People need ETH for: * Paying transaction fees to use the network. For example, Visa is now settling payments with card issuers using USDC on Ethereum, so Visa needs to pay these fees with ETH. * Collateral in financial applications: Over 11 million ETH (over $24 billion) ha…

No.

The greatest motivation for Crypto success are hatred and fear.

BTC is succeeding because people hate/fear Central Banks printing money , so people love BTC and hate Central Banks.

Ethereum doesn't put itself up against the printing of money but against companies instead. Google, Apple, Spotify etc. People don't hate those companies and to the extent that they do....they manifest their hate by asking Government to tax them more, not migrating to a super hard to use and super costly decentralized platform to undercut their power. The consumer doesn't think in those terms.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#173

Post by mustafa_pasi »

dmihal wrote: post #149
m9731526 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders Whenever I see someone say something like this for some blockchain, I wonder what exactly is exciting for them? Most dapps is about money and more money, I played with Ethereum before (like stress testing nodes), and would really like to know really innovating dapp these days -- I mean tech that solve existing real-world problems, not create new subjects to collect.

The most innovation is happening in financial products. There's no way for a developer or entrepreneur to experiment building in traditional finance without the support from large financial institutions. But in DeFi, there are financial applications built by teams in India, Africa, SE Asia, etc. If you want an example of one innovation, look at flash loans. Flash loans provide the ability to atomicly borrow infinite…

Flash loans are not a real world application. They are just another tool needed within the cryptospace itself.

This is the problem currently. There's ten thousand teams building and building, but each one of them is building yet another library or yet another tool. Nobody has any idea how to connect the crypto economy to the real world economy.

The only applications possible are ones that you can do within the cryptospace itself, like lending one crypto against another, or creating some creative gambling game.

Unless somebody can figure out how to bridge the cryptospace to the real world economy, the whole castle of cards will eventually crumble.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#174

Post by zoshi »

jakupovic wrote: post #138
zoshi wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I’m going to stick my savings in a cryptocurrency, I want the network to be stable for the foreseeable future (and be private, but that’s another story).

You can have your own network/blockchain but none would pay for it. Hence the problem.

By “private” I meant transaction privacy, which is offered by Monero.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#175

Post by dash2 »

dmihal wrote: post #140
dash2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question I've asked before: are there any applications which don't involve speculation?

Do you consider earning interest to be speculation? I can put stablecoins (crypto dollars) in a lending protocol like Aave and earn ~10% APY. Compare that to my savings account, which pays out 0.25% APY. Or how about the stablecoins themselves? MakerDAO creates the Dai stablecoin, backed by crypto-native assets like ETH & BTC. I have a number of friends in Argentina who are surviving hyper-inflation by keeping their…

Earning 10% "riskfree" isn't speculation, it's a Ponzi. What serious borrower needs to pay 10% to access credit? So then, who are the borrowers who are paying this interest? As they say on Reddit: !remindme 1 year.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#176

Post by asenna »

Kathula wrote: post #110
m9731526 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders Whenever I see someone say something like this for some blockchain, I wonder what exactly is exciting for them? Most dapps is about money and more money, I played with Ethereum before (like stress testing nodes), and would really like to know really innovating dapp these days -- I mean tech that solve existing real-world problems, not create new subjects to collect.

Yeah 99% of Ethereums use-cases is creating erc-20 tokens. Most of which is just iterations with slight variables of something that already exists.

This statement feels straight out of 2017.

Have you looked into the Ethereum ecosystem of 2021 by any chance?

Some examples:

- You can use your tokens as collateral, borrow stablecoins and pay off your mortgage while the loan pays itself off from the interest being generated by the collateral - you do not have to pay back the loan => https://alchemix.fi/

- Borrow stablecoins at 0% interest on your collateral => https://liquity.org/

- Musicians managing royalties of their work through NFTs => https://eulerbeats.com/

And there's a lot more.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#177

Post by asenna »

lottin wrote: post #10

The fact that something is scarce doesn't make it a store of value. Scarce simply means is in short supply, but prices aren't determined by supply alone, they are determined by supply and demand. Moreover, if an asset is in fixed supply, then its price is determined entirely by the demand. This means such an asset will only be a store of value if the demand for the asset remains strong over a long period of time, whi…

You're right, prices are determined by supply and demand but that's exactly what this article is about.

Ethereum has always had demand (due to the growing ecosystem of DeFi, NFT, etc) but the supply was arbitrary.

What's coming with EIP-1559 fixes this by directly linking the supply (or rather burning of tokens) to the demand of the network.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#178

Post by asenna »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #162
lottin wrote: post #10

The fact that something is scarce doesn't make it a store of value. Scarce simply means is in short supply, but prices aren't determined by supply alone, they are determined by supply and demand. Moreover, if an asset is in fixed supply, then its price is determined entirely by the demand. This means such an asset will only be a store of value if the demand for the asset remains strong over a long period of time, whi…

The point is that customers are already paying a lot of fees in Ethereum for financial services on the blockchain. Right now that money goes to run a lot of powerplants and gpu farms but will sometime in the future go to Ethereum staker. PoS coins are a combination of money, store of value and investment in a financial service "cloud".

It will actually not be going to the Ethereum staker, the "base-fee" is going to be burned (removed from supply) and no one gets it, that's what EIP-1559 does (expected to arrive in the July London hard-fork)

To add to this, the overall issuance of ETH yearly is going to reduce from about ~ 4+ Million ETH in the PoW model to about ~ 1.x Million ETH in the PoS model, because the PoS security does not require as much issuance.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#179

Post by dmihal »

ObserverNeutral wrote: post #172
dmihal wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, Ethereum is a better Store of Value than Bitcoin, not only because it is scarce, but because it provides utility, which creates demand. People need ETH for: * Paying transaction fees to use the network. For example, Visa is now settling payments with card issuers using USDC on Ethereum, so Visa needs to pay these fees with ETH. * Collateral in financial applications: Over 11 million ETH (over $24 billion) ha…

No. The greatest motivation for Crypto success are hatred and fear. BTC is succeeding because people hate/fear Central Banks printing money , so people love BTC and hate Central Banks. Ethereum doesn't put itself up against the printing of money but against companies instead. Google, Apple, Spotify etc. People don't hate those companies and to the extent that they do....they manifest their hate by asking Government t…

People hate Robinhood after they blocked users from trading. Decentralized exchanges like Uniswap are impossible to shut down.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#180

Post by dash2 »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #170
dash2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question I've asked before: are there any applications which don't involve speculation?

https://xtz.news/adoption/gravity-a-decentralized-solution-t... https://xtz.news/nft-news/tezos-based-nft-music-streaming-an...

Well, it's something I guess.

I dunno. I mean:

* artificial intelligence -> genuine image search and speech recognition

* self-driving -> Waymo, Tesla

These other hyped technologies have produced real results that I interact with. I'm not really convinced the blockchain has... except decentralized finance. Maybe that's fine.

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